The Germans linguistically differentiate between people that they are acquainted with and people that they are really friends with, by saying Sie to most people and du or ihr (the German version of ya’ll) to friends or kids. Once you switch from saying Sie with someone to saying du, you also switch from saying Mr./Ms. + surname to using their first name.
This complication of the language requires all kinds of unwritten rules about when to use which form, and also who should offer whom the chance to be on a du-basis. These rules also vary from northern Germany to southern Germany, where the southerners are generally more quick to call each other du. But the funniest thing it produces is the situation where people that have known each other for years introduce themselves to each other.
Let’s say you decide to meet with your work colleagues in the beer garden after a long day in the office. After enjoying some good times, two of your colleagues that have worked with each other for the last 10 years might get brave, and one will ask the other one if they should start using du with each other, which is like the adult version of “Will you be my friend? Check yes or no.” Almost always this request for friendship, just like on Facebook, is granted, and then these people who have known each other for 10 years introduce themselves to each other and sort of pretend as if the other person doesn’t already know their first name.
This can make working in Germany for you as an American a bit awkward, because often German managers want to show how internationally savy they are by calling you by your first name, even though you technically have a Sie relationship. Just start using their first name and calling them du.
deutsche Übersetzung für Astrid ein/ausblenden
Moin moin Astrid,
was geht?
hier die Übersetzung:
Ich bin John.
Die Deutschen unterscheiden sprachlich zwischen Menschen, die sie kennen und Menschen, mit denen sie tatsächlich befreundet sind, indem sie Sie zu den meisten Menschen sagen und Du oder Ihr (die deutsche Version von ya´ll) zu Freunden oder Kindern. Sobald Sie mit jemandem vom Sie zum Du wechseln, wechseln Sie automatisch auch von Herr/Frau + Nachname zum Vornamen.
Diese Schwierigkeit in der Sprache erfordert alle möglichen ungeschriebenen Regeln dafür, wann man welchen Ausdruck benutzt und auch wer die Chance anbieten sollte, auf einer Du-Basis zu sein. Diese Regeln unterscheiden sich auch noch einmal in Norddeutschland und Süddeutschland, wobei die Menschen aus dem Süden sich generell schneller duzen. Aber die lustigste Sache, die daraus entsteht, ist die Situation, dass sich Leute einander vorstellen, die sich schon seit vielen Jahren kennen.
Stellen Sie sich vor, Sie treffen sich nach einem langen Tag im Büro mit Ihren Kollegen im Biergarten. Nachdem sie ein paar gute Zeiten miteinander verbracht haben, werden zwei Ihrer Kollegen, die in den letzten 10 Jahren zusammen gearbeitet haben, vielleicht mutig und der eine fragt den anderen, ob sie anfangen sollten, Du zueinander zu sagen, was die Erwachsenenversion ist von “Willst Du mit mir gehen? Kreuze an: Ja, Nein, Vielleicht”. Fast immer ist diese Freundschaft, wie bei facebook, garantiert, und dann stellen diese Leute, die sich bereits seit 10 Jahren kennen, einander vor und tun so, als wüssten sie den Vornamen des anderen noch nicht.
Dies kann das Arbeiten für Sie als Amerikaner ein wenig unbehaglich machen, weil deutsche Führungskräfte oftmals zeigen wollen, wie international bewandert sie sind, indem sie Sie beim Vornamen nennen, auch wenn Sie rein theoretisch ein Sie Verhältnis haben. Fangen Sie einfach an, ihren Vornamen zu benutzen und Du zu ihnen zu sagen.
Man sieht sich,
John
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June 26th, 2008 at 4:15 am
I like our system. If you don’t like someone, you can easily insinuate it by insisting on the “Sie” without being too rude.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:45 am
I always felt like I could differentiate with something I was familiar with - handshakes or hugs. If I would shake hands with someone I would call them Sie and if we were close enough to give hugs I would use du.
June 26th, 2008 at 5:01 am
To make it more complete and even more complex, there is also an in between state: you still say “Sie” to each other whereas one of you (usually the superior) would call the other by first name. This form is frequently used between professors and their students at Universities (e.g. “John, bitte schreiben Sie noch viele weitere lustige Blogs, aber vergessen Sie darüber nicht die Vorbereitung auf das Examen…”)
Enjoy the silence, C-
June 26th, 2008 at 5:47 am
The most popular event to offer the “Du” to your colleagues is the annual christmasparty.
It sometimes puts you in an awkward situation the monday after it, cause you can´t be sure if your boss was friendly and finally chose you to say Du to him or if he was just drunk and doesn´t remember it anymore.
June 26th, 2008 at 6:28 am
I think “ihr” rather means “all y’all” - y’all is meant for just one person…
The biggest problem with moving from a “Sie” to a “du” it generally offered by the older or by the senior person which can get quite complicated if the boss is the younger one.
Furtehrmore du is generally used when speaking to children and teens while they still have to use the Sie.
June 26th, 2008 at 8:49 am
Strange is, for example, when a teacher, that has used “du” for years suddenly starts to say “sie” once you reached 16 or so.
June 26th, 2008 at 9:12 am
Just wanted to add something to the last paragraph.
Oddly enough there is also the mixed form of using the first name plus “Sie” or the last name plus “Du”. The latter can sometimes be heard in groceries and other mid-sized stores between colleagues. The rationale is that they know each other too well / too long to use “Sie”, but calling each other by the first name in front of the customers would sound too casual … still it sounds odd to many German ears, too. The former is called the “Hamburger Sie” and has first been used by merchants. I think this is similar to the American usage of first name + “you” in working environments. Most non-Hamburgers consider first name plus “Sie” over the top, though.
Another issue is, most Germans believe that Americans say “Du” to each other all the time. This is part of the stereotype of casual / superficial / discourteous Americans. Ironically “you” is the polite form corresponding to “Sie”, and “thou” has gone out of style in the English-speaking world.
It’s also worth mentioning that your caption has been attributed to our second federal president, Heinrich Lübke, as well as to ex-chancellor Helmut Kohl, both of which were ridiculed for their less than perfect English and for their verbal blunders in general (think Dubya).
June 26th, 2008 at 9:18 am
When I met my former teacher after his retirement, he offered me the “Du” as he thought of himself as being too old to get used to calling me by “Mr.” and by my family name. “You’re younger, it’s better you have to cope with the switch.”
Also, in some working environments, people use family names and Mr./Mrs., but also “Du”. I just heard it at ALDI yesterday - “Frau Meier-Müller-Schulz, hast Du mal den Kassenschlüssel? Ich hab’ Storno!”
June 26th, 2008 at 9:36 am
Correction: both of _whom_ were ridiculed for their less than perfect English
(oops!)
June 26th, 2008 at 10:16 am
@ckwon: The switch usually takes place when you switch from “Sekundarstufe I” (grades 5-10) to “Sekundarstufe II” (grades 11-12/13). In “Sekundarstufe I” the teacher uses “Du” and given name and in “Sekundarstufe II” the teacher uses “Sie” and given name.
And to be honest: There are other languages that uses “Du” and “Sie”. French for example uses “tu” (Du) and “vous” (Sie).
June 26th, 2008 at 11:37 am
In my school I had to use for every class a diverent “du-Sie” Code.
One Teacher used “Du” and the first name for us, but wanted to be addressed formal
One other wanted to be adressed formal with surname, adresses us to formal and with surname.
One other was informal all the way
We got Münchner Du (Du, Frau Müller)
Hamburger Sie (Sie, Jochen)
and all possible kinds of variations.
They even changed the mode after a while.
Some Teachers wer on “du” terms with one class, but on “Sie” terms with another!
It was really fun, talking to more than one Teacher at a time, seeing their amusement on how their colleagues got all addressed differently!
June 26th, 2008 at 11:51 am
While the teacher Du->Sie thing is known here, a lot of teachers find it ridiculous to start calling the pupil they knew for 5 years differently, so they just continue to say ‘Du’
the barrier when you switch between the two forms varies a lot between cultures, for example in spain you would say “tu” to most strangers on the street, and only use “usted” in very formal meetings
June 26th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
i for one never felt comfortable with those differences in adressing someone, tbh. i wouldn’t have any problem if the formal ‘Sie’ would be abolished from the german language
June 26th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Another big difference in adressing someone you do not know between americans and germans:
when writing a letter or email, in Germany you adresse the recipient as Mr. or Ms. Soandso, but you can bet your Heini that an american will address you or reply to you with your first name, which is often considered as rude or bad manners.
June 26th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
This is a very interesting topic. I grew in up in an environment that was very formal and most people expected you to obey strictly to the “Du” and “Sie” rules, even in school.
Starting in a company that is very proud of the fact that all employees, including the managers, are part of a family - well, let’s just say it was strange to call completely unfamiliar people by their first name suddenly and use “Du” even when you were talking to the board of managers.
Now, two years later, I have become so accustomed to the “Du” that I sometimes even use it with people outside of work without really thinking … only their reactions make me realize I have overstepped some boundaries.
Funnily, if I really dislike someone, it is a pleasure to stick to the formal “Sie” and be extra formal. That’s a nice way of showing someone what a pain in the *** he or she is without telling them directly
Gotta love our grammar.
June 26th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
At our school most teachers asked us at the start of the Sekundarstufe II if they may say Sie to us, or if we prefer to keep the Du. Most pupils prefered the latter.
This whole Du/Sie business also contributes to making dubs of American TV-shows and movies sound a bit funny, because there you hear the Sie + first name combination quite often, as opposed to in real life. USA Erklärt has a nice article about it here: http://usaerklaert.wordpress.com/2007/04/04/buffy-staffel-8-und-die-vornamen-falle/
June 26th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Lately I came to recognize that the conventions changed. So for example it happens more often now that you are addressed and greeted with informal forms by the waitress in a bar, coffee shop or restaurant. The distinction between Sie/ Du is made rather by age now than by social relation. So if the waitress is close to your own age she will greet you with Du. If she is serving coffee and cake to grandmas she will be using Sie. I like it that way because it makes life more casual and relaxed.
June 26th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
in a Kneipe it is very normal to say “du”
The Anglo-Amerikans lost their thou, thee, thy and thine, the analog forms for du, dein, deins, euer.
Shakespeare wrote:
Thou rascal beadle, hold thy bloody hand!
Why dost thou lash that whore? Strip thine own back;
Thou hotly lusts to use her in that kind
For which thou whipp’st her.
For more, read:
http://usaerklaert.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/thou-thee-und-thy-oder-warum-duzt-darth-vader-eigentlich-den-imperator/
June 26th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
My parents-in-law offered me the Du exactly a year after I first started seeing their daughter. It was at Christmas, where we were all sitting around a big table (for hours on end naturally) and they approached me with a shot glass, which her father handed to me. I noticed he held one of his own, as did his wife. They were smiling creepily and I had no clue what was going on. It was almost like be approached by a Jehovah’s Witness. He handed me the glass and extended his. His wife smiled away in the background. “Heinz” he said confidently. “Hallo Heinz” I replied. He looked a bit shaken. “Hanna” his wife said. “Hanna” I repeated, and smiled. Then I remembered what my colleague had told me when I mentioned I’d been invited to my girlfriend’s for Christmas. Something about “Bruderschaftstrinken.” Of course he had called it that they would be offering me the “Du.” I thought for a second and said, “Anony,” careful to look them in the eye. Their relief was palpable. I’d done it. Gosh it felt good to be a German that day!
June 26th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
In dutch, there is also a “Sie”-form and it is custom, to use it as an expression of respect. So my Mum adresses her mum (my Granny) in the “Sie” form (in dutch its “U”), to show her respect to the elder.
June 26th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
This is all nothing compared to the many forms of address in the Japanese language. They not only distinguish between familiarity, but also between social status and written or spoken language. Beat this!
June 26th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
I really like this possibility to express subtleties!
And I hate being adressed by “Du” just like that in a formal situation by someone who is not close to my age and doesn’t know me. I feel intruded upon!
But one can’t deny that some situations can be awkward. I still adress the parents of my boyfriend formally with the “Sie”, but still we hug… and they use “Du” when adressing me.
June 26th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
I also see advantages and disadvantages in the differentiation.
It’s also a question of familarization, I think. In German, I’m glad that there is an artificial line between strangers and friends when adressing them, but in English, it sounds pretty normal not to differ between the people you’re talking to.
June 27th, 2008 at 6:20 am
Well, in some countryside parts of Germany, especially in smaller villages far away from every civilization, it is common to address everybody, even strangers, with “Du”. There is no formal introduction, no “Bruderschaftstrinken” or such stuff - everyone is “Du”.
People will look frightened if you call them “Sie”, because only police or politicians do so, at least in their view of the world.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:01 am
Oh yeah,Bruderschaftstrinken is like the ultimate climax of the ‘du anbieten’.
I am a German living in the good ole US of A for the past ten years and what I find most interesting,is the way long time immigrated germans interact with each other over here.
While they all embrace the american way of addressing somebody on a first name basis,as soon as the meet another german,they are back to ‘Sie’.
I meet germans on a regular basis,and of course,since we are living in the states it is not clear right away that I have just found another german and vice versa.
Here is an exerpt of a conversation:
Me:’ Hi,how are you doing?’
Other German:’ Fine thanks and how are you today?’
Me: Great…..excuse me for asking,but i detect a slight accent in your voice…where are you from?
Other German: ‘Oh,I am from Germany….’
Me: ‘Really? Me too! Nice meeting you, I am Nicole.
Other German:’ Nice meeting you too, I am Renate….ach,dann koennen wir jetzt aber auch auf deutsch reden,oder…….wo kommen Sie denn her?’
Me: Aus Mainz,und du?
Other German:’ Ich komm aus Koeln…..sind Sie schon lange hier?
Me: ‘ Ja,eine ganze Weile schon,und du?’
Other German:’20 Jahre…..lange Zeit……
Me:’ Stimmt,wie bist du denn hier gelandet?’
Other German: ‘mit meinem amerkanischen Ehemann,und wie haben sie ihre Greencard bekommen?’
Und so weiter…….
June 27th, 2008 at 5:32 pm
The Du/Sie-thing is kind of strange but on the other hand, there is no german equivalent for the word “sir”.
June 27th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
We have another Sie/Du-rule in Germany. At least I think it’s a rule. Usually, the older one offers the Du
Very nice blog, by the way!
June 27th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
And you can’t forget the rare but hilarious cases where someone is offended enough to take the “Du” s/he had initially offered back. A related action to the unique German phenomenon of “Freundshcaft(en) kaputtgehen.”
June 27th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
“Sie” is showing respect on one hand and keep some distance on the other hand. I don’t like it to call people I don’t like at all by their first name so I’m quite glad we have this way of keeping distance.
On the other hand relations are considered deeper when you choose the “Du”, you can’t tell it from a superficial relation in the US
June 27th, 2008 at 7:09 pm
@Dent
There has been an equivalent:
Ja Herr,
wie sie wünschen, Herr!
Oh, Herr und Gebieter!
Luckily a bit out of fashion - like feudalism.
June 28th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
Since I live in England, I “duze” everybody in the internet, although they say “Sie” to me.
June 29th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Hallo lieber john,
du bist so fleißig mit deinen deutschen übersetzungen.danke,schatz!!!!
es wäre nett wenn die deutschen leser dieser fantastischen seite ihre kommentare in deutsch abgeben würden,weil unser john kann nicht nur toll unsere sprache sprechen, sondern wie einge wissen,sogar deutsche dialekte.
Sei gedrückt und abgebusselt
astrid
June 29th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
To make things a little bit more confusing, in parts of Franconia there ist also a third form, the “Ihr”. It stands between “Sie” und “Du”. After some time, you can start addressing somebody with “Ihr” and see, if he/she joins you using the “Ihr”. Then one of you can start using the “Du”, sometimes even after a few sentences. If the other person does not use the “Ihr”, but carries on using the “Sie” you can backpedal and also use the “Sie” again. So “Ihr” gives you the possibility to offer the “Du” without the risk of being embarrassed if the other person denies the “Du”.
If I think about it, this is nearly an American behaviour, cause it gives you the opportunity to be polite and also be very clear how you think about this matter.
Unfortunately, this third form is falling more and more into oblivion.
June 30th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
The “Ihr/Euch in singular” thing is also used in Oberschwaben and Südbaden. I’d guess it’s the french influence “vous”.
The (partially true) stereotype is that in those regions driving instructors are using that form. It is also often in small shops (Tante Emma Läden).
But I don’t think that this form is in danger more than the dialect itself is in danger. In dialect this form is so convenient to use: basically its a nearly inaudible “?r” that is appended to the previous word.
Henn?r des gsäa? (Did you see that?)
Do miaßdad?r lenggs! (Please turn left over there!)
July 2nd, 2008 at 6:44 pm
^^ I was just gonna mention that “Ihr/Euch” thing
I remember my mom adressing her mother in law (=my grandma) that way.
It was not used to “keep distance” here (they were actually quite close)…it was more of a way to show respect to the elder…
I found it always kinda strange tho, it sounded a bit ancient/old-fashioned…
February 4th, 2009 at 5:59 am
I like my German colleagues the best when they are drunk and happily dancing away. A combination of alcohol and loud music gives them the courage to speak to me without boring me to death. It is truly a Kodak moment!
June 19th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
That’s only polite
March 27th, 2011 at 9:28 am
I’m betting that perhaps, if us people here in Down Under (i.e. ME!) were to speak German, we’d probably be that informal as to use ‘du’ for every single person, from our next door neighbour to the Prime Minister, and reserve ‘Sie’ for exceptionally uptight people. And perhaps our best friends.
Man, I’ve known my friend for eight years and were still on Sie terms. Everyone else is du. Irony.
April 5th, 2011 at 7:49 pm
Funny thing is that English “you” is originally the same as German “Ihr”, that is, a polite form. The original pronoun used to address people was “thou”, corresponding to German “du”.
Originally, “thou” was used to address anyone, regardless of status or relationship; “ye”/”you” was only used to address more than one person.
In Middle English, there were the following pronouns (subject form first, object form second):
“I”/”me”, first person singular, corresponding to German “ich”
“thou”/”thee”, second person singular, corresponding to German “du”
“he”/”him”, third person singular masculine, corresponding to German “er”
“she”/”her”, third person singular feminine, corresponding to German “sie”
“it”/”it”, third person singular neuter, corresponding to German “es”
“we”/”us”, first person plural, corresponding to German “wir”
“ye”/”you”, second person plural, corresponding to German “ihr”
“they”/”them”, third person plural, corresponding to German “sie”
After the model of French “tu” vs. “vous”, “ye”/”you” was increasingly used as a polite or distanced form in Middle English. “Thou”/”thee”, however, remained as a more “intimate” form.
To be more precise I think “thou” conveyed that one considered the other as being on the same societal level or a lower one, while “ye” was a kind of submissive gesture to those considered superior.
The same development happened in Middle High German as well, even though “Ihr” as a form of address for a single person is now considered archaic and present only in a few local dialects (I only knew about Swiss dialects where this is used, that about Franconia is news to me).
In Southern England, probably London, there seems to have started a fashion in the 16th or 17th centuries (in Shakespeare’s time) to address EVERYONE with the high-status, polite form. Possibly as a form of urban dwellers to distance themselves from the country yokels who’d only ever use “thou” among themselves and “ye”/”you” only for urbanites (I guess - just like in modern times, rural people in Southern Germany, Austria or Switzerland would address every tourist from Northern Germany, who usually were urbanites, using terms along the lines of English “lord” or “lady”).
So, Londoners - considering themselves refined and cosmopolitan - would use the fashionable “ye”/”you” (modelled after French) among themselves, implying that everyone was of high status, or just because it was considered polite to address your conversation partner in a respectful manner. This would turn “ye”/”you” more into a sign that you consider the other one your equal.
In turn, “thou” remained the intimate way to address God, or people treated as of lower status. As in Shakespeare, this could be used deliberately to insult people by denying them respect. The combination God vs. pejorative use appears curious only on the surface: Talking to God was considered as intimate as it gets, but using “thou” for a fellow man was insulting if it was used INAPPROPRIATELY.
Another change that happened is that “ye”, still in use in some places in Ireland, disappeared from most places and was replaced by the object form “you”, now also used as subject form.
The King James Bible in the early 17th century was deliberately written in a style that seemed archaic even at the time, and used “thou”.
In regional dialects of English, “thou” has still not disappeared completely everywhere. It disappeared first in Southeast England, but in other regions it may still be heard until the present day.
The Quakers used “thou” instead of “you” to address each other at a time because of their preferrence of “plain” speech, to convey equality among them. “You” as a “fancy” pronoun conflicted with the ideal of “plain” speech and was thus avoided by them.
Over time, the original use of “thou” was forgotten by speakers of Standard English and as people felt it to be a “special” and archaic pronoun, used to address God and a frequent occurrence in the King James Bible (and also Shakespeare). Therefore, people feel “thou” to be “fancy” now, when it was originally the other way round.
The historically correct way to translate “Du darfst ruhig du zu mir sagen” into English would be “Thou canst say thou to me”, keeping in mind the explanations given.
September 8th, 2011 at 4:20 pm
Sie is for Sirs, du for dudes.