As long as they decide on what it will be before they hit puberty.
Germans believe in creating optimized social systems, and that includes their educational system. In America we lump almost all students together through high school, where the biggest concerns are winning sports championships and finding a good-looking classmate to take to the prom. In every high school in America, you will have kids toiling away in an effort to be accepted into one of the most prestigious universities in the world studying along side kids who are nearly smart enough to become janitors one day.
In Germany, on the other hand, these kids would have long been segregated into 3 different types of schools. So when German kids grow so old that they have to start writing their age with two digits, they need to begin worrying about their future career, because they are about to be branched off into either a school that will teach them what they need to know to become a doctor or a school to help them become a plumber.
Germans are remarkably inflexible in changing careers, whereas Americans don’t seem to have much of a problem redefining themselves whenever market conditions will reward this behavior. In Germany you can study to become a waiter for three years, whereas in America this process takes about 1 shift. So if your career is important to you in Germany, you need to make the right decision early, because switching later will be nearly impossible. The difference in your education and occupation can have far reaching consequences on your socioeconomic status in Germany, and will likely be the sole determining factor of whether you live life as a lower-middle class or mid-middle class citizen. (Essentially whether you will drive a Twingo or a Mercedes).
The dual-system as they call it in Germany is equivalent to our system of vo-techs and college drop-outs. In Germany those less interested in academics are funneled out of theoretical learning and into practical training at an early age. The nerds are stuck with one extra year of high school, but with the benefit of not having to share school grounds with the flunkies for the final years of their secondary education.
Whereas we tell our teenagers they can be anything they want to be and let them fail at attaining their dreams in college, Germans avoid these wasted 12 to 18 months of misguided educational efforts and instead replace them with an equivalent amount of wasted time in mandatory armed forces service.
In the end you have Americans that aren’t really experts at anything but still believe they can do everything, and Germans who are extreme specialists in their area but are reluctant to do anything outside their immediate job description.
Both systems have their charm, but the correct system is the American one, because it has inspired dozens of films of international acclaim revolving around high school, whereas there has never been a major motion picture about the German Gymnasium.
deutsche Übersetzung für Astrid ein/ausblenden
Moin Moin Astrid,hier die Übersetzung:
Die Deutschen können alles sein was sie möchten
Solange Sie sich für etwas entscheiden, bevor sie in die Pubertät kommen.
Die Deutschen glauben daran, ein optimiertes Sozialsystem zu erschaffen, und das beinhaltet ihr Schulsystem. In Amerika stecken wir fast alle Schüler bis zur High School zusammen, wo die größten Sorgen sind, die Sportmeisterschaft zu gewinnen und eine gutaussehende Klassenkameradin zu finden, die einen zum Schulball begleitet. In jeder High School in Amerika werden Sie Kinder haben, die sich abplagen, um von einer der angesehensten Universitäten der Welt akzeptiert zu werden, und neben diesen Kindern lernen andere, die beinahe intelligent genug sind, um eines Tages Hausmeister zu werden.
In Deutschland dagegen wären diese Kinder schon lange auf 3 verschiedene Schulformen aufgeteilt worden. Wenn deutsche Kinder alt genug werden, dass sie ihr Alter mit zwei Zahlen schreiben, müssen sie anfangen, sich über ihre zukünftige Karriere Gedanken zu machen, denn schon bald werden sie entweder einer Schule zugewiesen, die Ihnen alles beibringt, um ein Arzt zu sein, oder einer, die ihnen zeigt, wie man ein Klempner wird.
Die Deutschen sind aussergewöhnlich unflexibel im Wechseln der Karriere, wohingegen Amerikaner kein großes Problem damit zu haben scheinen, sich neu zu definieren wann immer die Marktlage dieses Verhalten belohnt. In Deutschland kann man drei Jahre lang lernen, ein Kellner zu werden, wobei dies in Amerika ungefähr eine Schicht lang dauert. Wenn Ihre Karriere Ihnen in Deutschland wichtig ist, müssen Sie die richtige Entscheidung früh treffen, denn später zu wechseln ist beinahe unmöglich. Die Unterschiede in Ihrer Ausbildung und Arbeit können weitreichende Konsequenzen für Ihren sozioökonomischen Status in Deutschland haben, und werden höchstwahrscheinlich der einzig entscheidende Faktor sein, ob Sie ein Leben in der unteren Mittelschicht oder der mittleren Mittelschicht führen (im Wesentlichen ob Sie einen Twingo oder Mercedes fahren werden).
Das duale System, wie sie es in Deutschland nennen, ist vergleichbar mit unserem System von Fachtraining und College Abbrechern. In Deutschland werden diejenigen, die nicht so sehr an wissenschaftlichen Fächern interessiert sind, in einem frühen Alter aus dem theoretischen Lernen aus- und in das praktische Lernen eingegliedert. Die Streber müssen ein extra Jahr zum Gymnasium, aber mit dem Vorteil, dass sie die Schule in dem letzten Jahr ihrer höheren Schulbildung nicht mehr mit den schlechten Schülern teilen müssen.
Während wir unseren Jugendlichen erzählen, dass sie alles sein können, was sie möchten, und sie auf dem College versagen lassen bei dem Versuch, ihre Träume zu erfüllen, umgehen die Deutschen diese vergeudeten 12 bis 18 Monate voll fehlgeleiteter bildender Bemühungen und verschwenden diese stattdessen mit einem ähnlichen Zeitrahmen für die Wehrpflicht. Am Ende haben wir Amerikaner, die keine Experten in irgendetwas sind, aber immer noch glauben, sie könnten alles erreichen, und Deutsche, die extreme Spezialisten auf ihrem Gebiet sind, aber unwillig sind, etwas ausserhalb ihrer genauen Stellenbeschreibung zu leisten.
Beide Systeme haben ihren Charme, aber das richtige System ist das Amerikanische, weil von ihm Dutzende international beliebte Filme inspiriert wurden, die sich um die High School drehen, wogegen es noch nie einen international beliebten Film über das deutsche Gymnasium gegeben hat.
Glück Auf,
John
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July 10th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
>switching later will be nearly impossible
Well - I’m sorry to contradict you since contradiction in this blog is regularly sneered at and labeled “typical German ‘Rechthaberei’”.
But: You’re wrong. If your final results at a ‘Realschule’ are very good (at the end of class 10), you can at once switch to a ‘Gymnasium’. If you don’t do that, you can attend a ‘Fachoberschule’ and acquire the right to attend a ‘Fachhochschule’, and if you stay on for another year and pass the appropriate exams, you can go to University too.
There is also the so-called Abendgymnasium. If you are a late-developer and went to a Hauptschule first, but then decide you want to do something academic instead of repairing cars (what would we do without people who can do that), then you can also go to a university - if you’ve succeeded in your job and made it to ‘master craftsman’.
Some Länder have already abolished ‘Hauptschulen’ because this school type’s image is so bad.
Oh - of course I’m not sure if you’re really interested. Because: your other main argument remains valid. No Hollywood movie has been set at a German gymnasium … so far.
And I agree with your main argument: Eleven years is a very early age for parents/teachers/children to decide in what direction a child’s intellectual capacities are developing.
July 10th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
Oh there actually has been a movie (or even a series of movies I think) about the Gymnasium called “Die Lümmel von der ersten Bank” (it roughly translates to ‘The buggers from first row’).
It was a major success at the time (back in the 60s or early 70s I think) but to be honest: Today you just look at it and think WTF! Although I’m german myself I think this kind of humor is - well - a little strange and outdated
July 10th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
The barriers for switching (up to a “higher” school – down is easy) in Germany are too high and it is simply mindblowingly stupid and crazy to decide about the future of children when they turn ten. This was modern ca. 150 years ago.
There are ways to switch, but those are all badly constructed add-ons that only soften the whole thing somewhat. If you want the real deal – modern education that gives every child a somewhat equal chance of succeeding or failing no matter if the parents drive a Mercedes or Golf – you will have to tear everything down and start from scratch.
The educational system is one of the biggest problems in Germany.
July 10th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
You are so wrong about the movie! The Germans actually made movies about the Gymnasium decades before the Americans thought about that
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063254/
July 10th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
And not to forget: Die Feuerzangenbowle, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0036818/
But else you’re right, the “three lane education system” is stupid and likely one reason why German is so unjust compared to other developed countries.
July 10th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
and don’t forget “Wir hau’n die Pauker in die Pfanne” and, a bit newer, “Schule” ;).
July 10th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
We more or less invented the genre of school movies.
July 10th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
>The Germans actually made movies about the Gymnasium
>decades before the Americans thought about that
“Die Feuerzangenbowle” (The Fire Tongs Bowl, The Punch Bowl), a german movie from 1944, was a big hit in Germany.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Feuerzangenbowle
July 10th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
“Fast times at Goethe Gymnasium” - doesn’t sound right. The German system is, like every german system…complicated, well formulated, very precise and absurdely inefficient. But it is, in parts, very flexible. I know a lot of college graduates who have worked as waiters, cab-drivers, salesman, call-center-agents or “in the media-bussines” and had internships in at least 5 different companies, and still do….although I must admit, most of them majored in social-studies, cultural sciences or similar useless stuff.
Theres another difference between the german and the american system.
If an american wants to be a….lets say carpenter he buys a hammer and some nails and calls himself carpenter. In germany we have this kind of quality-management which says if you want to be a carpenter you have to learn to be a carpenter and if you want to own your own shop, you have to be a “master of carpentry”.-…or at least hire one.
July 10th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Hold on, doesn’t the whole “Schulmädchen-Report” series take place in a Gymnasium? Those films pre-date “Fast Times at Ridgemont High” by over a decade. And they’re even listed in the English Wikipedia, so they must be internationally acclaimed:-)
July 10th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
Whoa! John talks about the stereotype of the (supposed) tight German school system - and the discussion covers movies - and what movies, I have to ask!
Anyway, John, this time I am not with you. The OECD claims our school system to be unfair, but I doubt it is. Not only with the age of 10 but also later, even as an adult, there are more ways to a university diploma than one could ever think of. “Zweiter Bildungsweg” (translates roughly to “second way to/of education”). “Berufsabitur” (for professionals who didn’t qualify directly in school). Fachabitur. You name it.
Please don’t think I am idealizing our system, but I have the strongest feeling that the 3-way system is not the problem. As a matter of fact, there seems to be a problem! So we have to spend more money for education, and it has to be at the earliest possible moment. When children don’t speak the language of their teachers it is too late. You think glueing children together until they are grownups solves the problem? It would strengthen the idea of private schools. Like in the USA. Sorry, sounds like a “Nyah”, I know.
And, sorry, I won’t come up with a solution here. There is more to do than what fits here into the text widget
July 10th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Damn right!
July 10th, 2008 at 8:47 pm
The school system in Germany is much more flexible than you claim. There are so many alternative routes and special school forms who let students catch up with their formal education.
Gerhard Schröder, the former Chancellor, came from a dirt poor family. His mother, a widow because his father died in the war before he was even born, worked several jobs as menial worker to bring him up. He attended only the shortest school form and went on to be an apprentice at a hardware store for three years. Later he attended night school to the second level and followed that with full time school to the highest exam level in schools and passed Abitur with good marks. He went to university, studied law and rose in the ranks of the political youth organization of the Social Democratic Party to become their federal chairman. His career led him to be the attorney of terrorists, member of the federal parliament, Prime Minister of Lower Saxony and finally Federal Chancellor.
A friend of mine was an underachiever in the beginning of his school career, went to the mid level school form and became an apprentice as electronic specialist with BMW. After he finished that with honors, he went on full time to secondary school, passed Fachabitur, went on to a university of applied science to study engineering and is now working again with BMW designing their engines.
Another former underachiever I know, came from the family of immigrants from the Balkans, attended the mid level school form, followed by apprenticeship at a large insurance company. He worked that field for two more years and went to Berlin, where he could attend university despite having no Abitur, they accepted his professional experience. He did the first half of a Bachelor of Economics in Berlin, came back to Munich, where he could not have begun to study but was able to continue and graduated a few years ago with an excellent exam.
True those careers are not the norm, but they are possible.
July 10th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Do you know, what certification means in industry? They have to garantee the quality of their products and especially security. They can’t risk for example to let a car mechanic repair your car’s brakes, who’s only qualification is knowing that a car should have some.
I think after all the German system is quite okay - just slightly inflexible.
July 11th, 2008 at 12:39 am
“Oh there actually has been a movie (or even a series of movies I think) about the Gymnasium called “Die Lümmel von der ersten Bank” (it roughly translates to ‘The buggers from first row’).”
I love that film! reminds me of when I was a kid and they would show it on telly.
July 11th, 2008 at 9:01 am
Stop that serious discussions about the german educational system.. -> not funny!
and, does anyone actually read the comments written before??
July 11th, 2008 at 9:49 am
“Germans are remarkably inflexible in changing careers” -> this is SO true!!!
July 11th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
The American system isn’t that much flexible either. Maybe it is flexible for all the Americans who are used to it, but for me as a German who plans to immigrate to the US and work there it is highly unflexible. American universities require much more from international students juts to accept them. German university degrees are not recognized, you have to pay evaluation companies to acknowledge your degree. So where is the flexibility if a native speaker of a foreign language wants to teach that language in the US, unless of course it is a much demanded language?
Yes, the German eduational systems seems to be very complicated. And maybe it is. One point really is that the education is still in the resort of the “Länder” so there is no unity in the system possible. But the 3 different schools also offer the chance for everyone to achieve what they are able to do. Just imagine the drop out rates if we had only one school type.
For me both systems have their problems. But if you are used to and comfortable with only one of the systems it is of course always easier to whine and complain about the other system.
July 11th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Es gibt jede Menge Möglichkeiten, von einem System auf das andere zu wechseln. Die meisten Hauptschulen bieten eh schon ein zusäztliches Jahr für den Erwerb der Mittleren Reife an. Dazu gibt es die Möglichkeit, nach Erwerb der Mittleren Reife entweder auf ein normales Gymnasium zu gehen oder ein Fachgymnasium zu besuchen, dass konkret auf solche Wechsler zugeschnitten ist.
Selbst wenn man das ncht macht, kann man nach einer ordentlichen Ausbildung die Fachhochschulreife nachholen, so dass man in dem Bereich, in dem man arbeiten will, auch studieren kann.
Mal ganz abgesehen davon, dass man für eine ganze Menge Sachen, für die man in Amerika einen Highschoolabschluss benötigt, in Deutschland kein Abitur braucht, weil wir das duale System haben, mit Berufsschule und Asubildung im Betrieb.
July 11th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
The problem in Germany isn’t the school system per se — it’s how people are using it.
July 11th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Die Lümmel von der ersten Bank war großartig. Hansi Kraus als Pepe Nietnagel (!) und der große Theo Lingen als Oberstudiendirektor Dr. Taft. Das war noch Kino. Solche Filme werden ja heutzutage gar nicht mehr gemacht.
July 11th, 2008 at 9:56 pm
xnrat: Ja, das waren noch Zeiten. Und ich ertrage es kaum, dass sich in amerikanischen Serien alles um die High School dreht. Das hat mich bei Heroes schon mittelschwer genervt. Eine ansonsten sehr gut gemachte Serie. Und das ist ein triftiger Grund um Serien wie “Buffy the Vampire Slayer”, “Smallville” oder auch diese unsäglichen Teen-Movies zu meiden.
Es läuft sonst immer auf diese “intrigante Cheerleader”-Geschichten hinaus. Oder es handelt sich um welche nach dem Schema: Footballspieler schnappt sich Freundin vom Protagonisten und vermöbelt ihn. Aber der Protagonist hat einen Plan, denn der Footballspieler ist saudoof und schafft den Abschluss nur weil er dem Anschein nach Rinderhormone eingeschmissen hat und deswegen der Held auf dem Feld ist *yawn*. Andeutungsweise auch bei Transformers, dem Sommerhit 2007 zu sehen. Übrigens ein Film, der ganz passabel hätte werden können, wenn Michael Bay die Finger davon gelassen hätte. Wann lernt Hollywood endlich, dass der 1955er Biff Tannen-Typ ausgelutscht ist?
Es ist ziemlich hart, wenn man nicht das Zielpublikum ist (Amerikaner, maximal 17 Jahre alt und Nicht-Nerd/Geek). Da bleibt mir also nur noch Stargate: Atlantis, Doctor Who und Torchwood, während der Battlestar in der Sommerpause ist.
July 11th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
An almost unusually serious topic, and way of dealing with it, by this blog’s standards.
The tiny details may not all be correct, but the general observations are so bang on!
For the record, though, Germany did have its own tradition of school-related films some time in the 50s/60s (google “Lausbubenfilme”), although they’re not quite the same, of course. It should also be noted that Die Ärzte called on of their albums “Rock’n'Roll Realschule”, in reference to the Ramones’ Rock’n'Roll High School. But those bands aren’t quite the same, either, of course.
July 12th, 2008 at 12:11 am
What defenders of the status quo don’t get is that in the end this is not so much about flexibility. It just doesn’t make any sense at all to sort children in fourth grade. Everyone who suggests that their grades at this point show how capable they are must be a lunatic. The grades in fourth grade can maybe guide your decisions when it comes to fifth grade, but not when it comes to the rest of their time in school (and thereafter).
The flexibility that the German systems has dampens the effect of this brutal and – dare I say? – inhuman sorting process quite a bit, but the fundamental flaw remains. It sorta works, but it’s an ugly patchwork. It would be better to fix the problem at the core than to tinkerf around it.
Sort if you must, but not in fourth, rather in ninth grade. Or later. Or not at all. Have all you defenders of the current German system been to a Hauptschule recently? Do you have any idea how stigmatized those children are? It’s not easy to get out there even if you are smart and that has more to do with the depressing environment rather than with a lack of flexibility. Ditching sorting will not solve all problems, but it would be a large step in the right direction.
July 12th, 2008 at 6:35 am
@michael: within the Gymnasium branch of our school system there are many different school forms, distinguished mostly by the order of foreign languages, but not only by them. My first foreign language at school was Latin (then English and French; others choose Ancient Greek as third language). In a school system, that branches off only after grade 9, no Latin would be taught, particularly not as first foreign language.
So your idea kills the traditional ‘Humanistische Gymnasium’. It kills the ‘Musische Gymnasium’, where (based on the Humanistische branch) the order is Latin, English and instead of a third foreign language students have three to five years of high intensity musical studies.
Sorting early is not the problem. The problem is that most kids from immigrant families don’t get the support they need. Almost all the deficiencies in statistics on the German school system are based on non-integrated immigrants, where the kids don’t speak German when they get into school, where the parents can’t support them because they themselves have no education to speak of. Where there are no immigrants, even the Hauptschule provides a decent education and access to jobs, as in the Bayerische Wald for example.
And the half day school is based on the idea of a family where one parent (the mother of course) stays at home or works only part time and provide lunch and support for homework. This is not the reality anymore, so the most important reform is to provide lunch and either additional classes or supported homework at school.
The early branching off is fundamental for the variety in the school system and this is a value that should not be abandoned easily.
July 12th, 2008 at 7:06 am
I am German but I prefer the American school system. Ours isn’t worth anything anymore … when I finished Gymnasium about 7 years ago I didn’t feel like I was among people who were much smarter and did deserve to attend this kind of school.
In the US, you have your basic courses, you have senior level, honors level and then you can even take college classes. It’s all determined whether you are capable or not. I had to endure two years of “Leistungskurs English” (honors level English) with people who didn’t even know how to form simple sentences. And the pace of the course was adopted to their slow-motion thinking process. Those hours were completely wasted and it proves that as long as this is possible - very good students suffer because of less smart ones - our system doesn’t work.
From my experience in the US, the senior and honors courses were fast paced and went into a level of details that I didn’t get here in the same courses (biology, for example). The German education might have been world class - a century ago. People still think we are top notch. Well, we are not. We are just too arrogant to admit it.
And then there is this notion that it would be unfair to further separate students based on their skills. I think that’s the best thing you can do. I felt bad for keeping my course back in math because I sucked at math and I had already chosen the “Grundkurs” (basic course). But to allow students to take honors courses if they only have a GPA of (German) 3.0 or 3.5 (US 2.5 or 2.0) is wrong and doesn’t serve anybody.
July 12th, 2008 at 10:08 am
Why is sorting not a problem? It’s doable, yeah, but to suggest that the results have anything to do with how good or bad the children really will be for the next five to eight years in school seems completely crazy to me.
To do that brutal sorting process just to preserve different forms of Gymnasien seems crazy to me. Put them all in one school, and there you can offer Latin courses. Or ancient Greek courses. Or some special music program for that matter. And the children (in fifth grade rather their parents) can choose. Why is that so hard? I do not suggest that every child is supposed to learn the same until ninth grade (or until they finish school). That would be equally crazy. But let them choose. Offer different courses. But keep them in one school.
July 13th, 2008 at 6:08 pm
I love the picture in this article!!!
It´s so funny, who would do this? LOL!
July 14th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
Hallo mein Liebelein,
mit diesem Artikel hast du mir aus der Seele gesprochen.Danke dafür.Und danke das meine eventuellen Enkelkinder sich schulisch bei Euch entfalten dürfen.Ich freue mich so sehr für euch das mein” ” Baby” bald ,hoffentlich für immer bei Dir und den “Amis” glücklich wird.
Sei gedrückt und geknuddelt
Deine Astrid
July 15th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Well, I also think its not too hard to switch. It might be hard while you are still in the Realschule, but after you finished it, you can continue in the Oberstufe of a Gymnasium. I know a couple of people who did that.
While I also think our system is a bit too complicated, I am still glad that there were no Hauptschüler at my school, because for 90% of them the most important thing in life is to insult each others mother as hard as possible. So splitting them up has its advantages
My time at the Gymnasium was quite peacful, I saw maybe 3 to 4 fights in 7 years.
July 29th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
In the US a plummer has to come three times until the problem is fixed (if you are lucky). A lot of quick fixes over here! I rather have some school trained person fixing my things!
October 27th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
—schnipp—
writing their age with two digits
—schnapp—
is not:
dass sie ihr Alter mit zwei Zahlen schreiben
it’s
dass sie ihr Alter mit zwei Ziffern schreiben
Merke: die Zahl besteht aus Ziffern, wie das Wort aus Buchstaben.
Viele Grüße
europamitte
June 8th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
“Both systems have their charm, but the correct system is the American one, because it has inspired dozens of films of international acclaim revolving around high school, whereas there has never been a major motion picture about the German Gymnasium.”
ROFLMAO!
November 10th, 2009 at 8:26 am
I guess that would depend on how you define “major”. There are a lot of German motion pictures about German Gymnasiums (”Die Feuerzangenbowle” would be a popular example). I would even call them “major” by our puny German standards and I would wager the guess that we have just as many as there are in the US about high school…
March 18th, 2010 at 2:55 pm
i love your blog.
i am german and i must say i do not share every single experience you are writing about BUT that doesn’t matter - these are one person’s (your) views and experiences, these are personal intercultural experiences. they are very interesting to read and extremely entertaining.
and i love your tone.
i have to quote micha here:
“Both systems have their charm, but the correct system is the American one, because it has inspired dozens of films of international acclaim revolving around high school, whereas there has never been a major motion picture about the German Gymnasium.”
ROFLMAO!
roflmao, too ^^
well done, very well done!
March 21st, 2010 at 12:57 am
I think the reason why the system isn’t working as well anymore as it used to do is that it has been perverted from its original state. Originally, only the brightest kids (a small élite) could go to Gymnasium, make Abitur, and attend Universität. The majority attended Hauptschule or Realschule.
Now most kids are at Gymnasium, almost everyone makes Abitur (which is why even menial jobs require Abitur now), and Universitäten are flooded by people who have no interest in science, research or an academic career (Universitäten have degraded into fancier professional training centres, a lot like colleges in the States which I’ve heard lambasted as being on the level of our Volkshochschulen!), with the result that especially the humanities and small, exotic fields of study - where research is still the focus, and the training of to-be scientists, nothing else - are marginalised. The Realschule has turned into the exception instead of the norm, and the Hauptschule is left with the kids of the poorest parents, especially uneducated immigrants who are not integrated at all and barely speak a word of German. Essentially the offspring of day labourers, slaves or even pariahs. Sort of like those poor Afro-American kids in the USA.
March 25th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
@Florian
Wow! Shocking to see such a weltlichste guy is so rassistisch! We have all kinds of poor children in the USA, including immigrants from Central America, the Caribbean, Southeast Asia, and Eastern European countries like Bosnia, not just African Americans, who by the way are not “labourers, slaves or even pariahs”.
And in the USA, it is considered important that all children have access to education, so that they can rise above their station and become a contributing member of society . That is what is called the AMERICAN DREAM and we do not begrudge providing education because of wealth or social status. There is nothing wrong with being a day laborer, and we don’t have slaves, and no one knows what a pariah even is.
March 27th, 2010 at 4:47 am
Well, I didn’t mean to come off as racist. Nor was I implying that African Americans are the only minority who is poor, or that all African Americans are poor, but that should be a given, duh. I was just trying to find a comparison. But how about those ghettoes and slums, like in the Bronx, where poor blacks form street gangs fighting against each other etc.? Are you trying to say those don’t exist anymore?
As for slavery, it depends … just because something is not called slavery (for obvious reasons) does not mean that it can’t work in the same way.
March 27th, 2010 at 5:22 am
You have to understand that when we think of our immigrants, African Americans are the minority that comes to mind first as a comparison. That has nothing to do with racism (I don’t even understand where the racism in my comparison actually is supposed to lie, and why it wouldn’t have been racism if I had used another minority as an example …? Makes no sense to me).
Hell, immigrant kids - especially Turkish German kids - even adopt some traits associated with African Americans, like hip-hop culture and fashion and stuff, and they’ve got a slang of their own, too, that has become fashionable lately even among the “white” kids (those without “Migrationshintergrund” I mean). That’s why a Turkish German guitar virtuoso like Muhammad Suicmez is so unique, unexpected and out of the ordinary. A Turkish German kid that listens to metal and classical instead of rap? Can’t be.
Oh, and pariahs are pariahs simply by virtue of being treated like pariahs, even if there’s not a societal class officially called that. John, you needn’t have a tag on a spade that says “spade” to recognise the tool as spade. Not every country that calls itself a democracy is one, either.
I’m certainly not saying that immigrants and their descendants here are subhuman or treated like it. But there are all kinds of conflicts and social divides. Almost parallel societies. That’s why there is so much heated discussion about “multiculturalism” in Germany. It’s obvious that you can’t do without integration, that doesn’t mean you can’t respect other cultures or the cultures of the immigrants, nobody is advocating total assimilation, but there must be compromises. When neither parents nor kids speak German well, there is no common ground and communication and schooling is made very difficult.
There’s the English-only movement in the US. That’s what I would call narrow-minded. I’ve never advocated anything like that and I’m not unsympathetic to the concerns of immigrants and their descendants, so I have no idea why I should suddenly be racist. If addressing issues plainly is racist where you live, I really don’t want to live there and feel sorry for you. That’s really political correctness spun out of control. There’s no denial that the Hauptschule - at least in urban areas - has become a place for the lower classes to remain among themselves, and that the established bourgeoisie avoids, which is entirely contrary to its original purpose.
March 27th, 2010 at 5:32 am
By the way - no offence, but you seem to be parroting some ideology here, without paying attention to reality. Why are most inmates of US prisons black? America isn’t such a paradise full of well-meaning people as you seem to portray it. There’s still a lot of racist prejudice especially against blacks in force, as far as I’ve heard. A large part of the prison population is serving for drug-related offences. However, whites don’t use illegal drugs any less. It’s just that there are heavy double standards around.
April 2nd, 2010 at 3:58 pm
It just seemed that you begrudged providing education for the underprivilaged and then immediately compared German poor to African Americans, as if they were some sort international standard of the down-trodden in society, a racist viewpoint if I ever heard one. I was only writing to let you know that your perception of American education and who is poor in America is ill-informed, and your word choice is offensive in most of American society.
No, things are not perfect here. And I did not claim there is no racism or class distinction that divides our population. Enlightened Americans just do not automatically associate “black” with “poor” and certainly NOT with “slaves”. And, there are probably many more African Americans who are not living in “ghettos and slums” and who are not in “street gangs fighting against each other” than there are. Also, while there is stratification and segregation, I would not say that any part of the population is untouchable (like the caste system in India) which is what I take your use of the word “pariah” to mean. (Why don’t YOU call a spade a spade?)
There is no “English-only movement” here and as for prison populations, there are many social reasons that there is an imbalance in the racial makeup, not because our justice system is run by a bunch of white supremacists. Before you cast aspersions onto us, you really ought to do a little research and educate yourself about “reality”.
And by the way, did you notice how I did not answer with assumptions and stereo-types attacking life in Germany? Huh!