The Germans love planning and punctuality, and they tend to scoff at our play-it-by-ear methods as juvenile, a side effect of our cowboy mentality. Germans don’t value spotaneity, they value everything running as planned. If you are ever waiting for a train in Germany and notice that it is over one minute late, you will hear at least one German denouncing the Deutsche Bahn as unreliable, despite the fact that it manages a 20,000 mile network of rail road carrying five million passengers each day with stunning efficiency. The Germans love planning so much that they even plan out their illnesses.
If you work with Germans and try to contact one who is missing from work due to an illness, his boss will tell you that he is sick until next Thursday. That’s because Germans go back to work when their doctor schedules them to be well again.
deutsche Übersetzung für Astrid ein/ausblenden
Grüss dich Astrid,hier die Übersetzung:
Die Deutschen planen ihre Krankheiten
Die Deutschen lieben Pläne und Pünktlichkeit, und sie tendieren dazu, unsere Improvisationen als kindisch zu verspotten, eine Nebenwirkung unserer Cowboy-Mentalität. Deutsche wissen Spontanität nicht zu schätzen, Sie schätzen alles, was nach Plan verläuft. Falls Sie jemals in Deutschland auf den Zug warten und dieser verspätet sich mehr als eine Minute, werden Sie mindestens einen Deutschen hören, der die Deutsche Bahn als unzuverlässig anprangert, entgegen dem Fakt, dass die Deutsche Bahn ein 20.000 Meilen langes Netzwerk bewirtschaftet, das jeden Tag 5 Millionen Passagiere mit einer erstaunlichen Effizienz transportiert. Die Deutschen lieben das Planen so sehr, dass sie sogar ihre Krankheiten ausplanen.
Wenn Sie mit Deutschen zusammen arbeiten und versuchen jemanden zu kontaktieren, der auf Grund einer Krankheit nicht bei der Arbeit ist, wird dessen Chef Ihnen sagen, dass er bis nächste Woche Donnerstag krank ist. Das ist so, weil die Deutschen dann zurück zur Arbeit gehen, wenn ihr Doktor sagt, dass sie wieder gesund sind.
Grüße auch an Kind und Kegel und Fische und Joschi,
John
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November 26th, 2008 at 8:20 am
I’m ill, too. Until next Monday!
November 26th, 2008 at 8:32 am
In most cases we do, right. But sometimes, doctor’s schedule doesn’t work out. So if our illness is as unreliable as the Deutsche Bahn is, we hurry to the doctor again who gives us a new schedule.
November 26th, 2008 at 8:38 am
You are right. I even know some people who plan at waht time they want to get “ill”.
November 26th, 2008 at 8:48 am
I agree with Jörn, we don’t really (at least I) try to get back to work according to what the doctor orders, he just estimates how long we will be ill for insurance reasons, so that we get paid sick days for the time of our illness. Also, the company knows roughly how long they will have to manage without the ill person.
How is this handled in the USA?
November 26th, 2008 at 8:59 am
When you’re comparing DB to Amtrash or Vile Rail you could call the train system here efficient.
November 26th, 2008 at 9:08 am
studying intercultural awareness right now, it’s really interesting reading sth about the germans.
November 26th, 2008 at 9:10 am
I was away from work sick and a friend asked me if I’d gotten a “no-really-I’m-sick” slip from a doctor. Having no idea what he meant and feeling better the next day I returned to work.
Another coworker there asked me if I’d turned in this proof to the boss and if I was sure I could already return. I was not sick anymore and didn’t think I needed a second opinion. If I should feel sick again, the simplest thing would be to return home. Pretty sure Durchfall from undercooked chicken isn’t contagious.
Maybe it’s because I’d never held a job post-college in the States but I’ve never run into needing a Krankenschein there.
November 26th, 2008 at 9:54 am
The reason for this is, that if something happens to you at work while you are in the the time the doctor said your ill, you have no insurance.
So if you want to work again you have to go to the doctor so he can say: yes, you are no longer sick.
November 26th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
@ flippah
That is an old fairytale and not true. If you and your employer both agree, you don’t have to stay at home. The employer will be the last one to refuse. So it depends on the employee…
The doctor cannot declare that you are sick for a fix period, at least as long as he has no crystall ball in his office and a pointy hat with stars. He can only make a prognosis how long you will probably not be able to work.
November 26th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
@Haf, we tell our employer that we are sick and we come back when we feel better.
November 26th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Nun, die Deutsche Bahn wird ja nicht gezwungen uns Tickets zu verkaufen. Wenn die sich das also zutrauen muessen sie auch Leistung bringen, Puenktlichkeit und Verlaesslichkeit gehoeren dazu.
Leider wird zwar immer gemurrt, letztendlich hat man sich aber damit abgefunden und plant stattdessen die Unzuverlaessigkeit mit ein. Und solange die Bahn mehr oder weniger Monopolist bleibt kann man sich auch nicht einfach wehren, beispielsweise indem man einfach den Anbieter wechselt.
November 26th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Well I even plan when i’m gonna be sick. most of the time between 2 vacations. like in february. its right in the middle between my christmas and easter vacation. and germans doctors always give you the yellow “oh i’m REALLY sick” sheet for a week even if you dont have anything bad. and yes, i LOVE it
November 26th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Thanks for the answer, John. Seems fairly unbureaucratic.
Do you get paid for the sick days?
If the illness is just there one or two days, in some companies in Germany there is no need to fetch a Krankenschein from the doc.
November 26th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
You’re damn right! In my opinoin it’s almost sick with that all planning. The most of Germans are pedantic in an excessive way.
November 26th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Sure the doctor can call you in sick until next Thursday. If he deems this period of time necessary for you to recover, it’s his decision. If you stay sick longer, you just prolong the absence certificate, but the other way round may be dangerous: If you take antibiotics, for example, you feel much better pretty soon, but you still neet to take the whole package, because there still are bacteria around to kill. It is the same with sick leave: If you turn up at work again and are not 100% fit again, chances are, you’ll get sick again much faster than if you recover completely first.
I definitely prefer the German system, even though I am self-employed.
November 26th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
As an adjunct instructor here in the States who gets paid by the hour (quite nicely, too, thank you), I can’t even remember the last time I had another teacher substitute for me because I was sick. I would have to say that the last time was probably ten to fifteen years ago. I enjoy teaching and it would have to something very serious to keep me out of the classroom.
Slacker Germans? Yes, sad to say. Whatever happened to those once-touted hard-working Germans? The Japanese and the Americans still believe in hard work, but German work culture today has been eviscerated by the NANNY-STATE that fosters a sense of entitlement and organized laziness (only Germans could be organized, lazy bums).
*
November 26th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
“Slacker Germans? Yes, sad to say. Whatever happened to those once-touted hard-working Germans? The Japanese and the Americans still believe in hard work” -
The following comment is made under the impression that are not kidding (I’m german so I have no working irony-detector)
Yes, and that’s exactly why our economy is completely in the tank, our trade-deficit is insane, our car industry is broke and our steel-industry is completely depending on federal subsidies….oh wait it isn’t, that’s the good ol’ US of A.
And as a former employee of DB, I have to say that this company is pretty much a mess, but in terms of trains running in time it’s much more reliable than it’s people believe
November 26th, 2008 at 6:05 pm
Oh, if the Deutsche Bahn only WERE late by just a minute…
November 26th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Dent,
You’re easy, my dear Cherman. Not only do you not have a functioning irony-detector, you have no irony detector at all, which is why we love you.
Oh, I forgot to add punctuality. Germans are punctual and organized lazy bums. At the same time, I would rather have punctual and organized lazy bums than punctual and organized Nazis. I’m sure the Jews would also have preferred today’s coddled, toothless, guilt-ridden, pessimistic German bums.
Anyway, Germans, why work at all? A beach in Spain awaits your fat arse and a line of beers ready to be swilled down as the sweat trickles down your distended, unshaven jowls. Otto in the house!
*
November 26th, 2008 at 7:00 pm
@Mike: “Pretty sure Durchfall from undercooked chicken isn’t contagious.”
It might be. If it is the Norovirus, you are highly contagious even if your symptoms are gone after 3-4 days. If you are e.g. a cook you should refrain from working for another 2 weeks, otherwise you might be patient 0 for the next outbreak.
So, yes go to work when you feel fit, but when in doubt ask your physician, he/she is the professional for this kind of decision.
BTW: two days sick this year, after a really nasty tooth removal by an oral surgeon.
November 26th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
First of all, the nazi-card?…really?
“unshaven jowls”
Are you calling me french? because there’s really no reason to be offensive.
I was told that irony involves some sort of humour, the obvious lack of it lead me to the conclusion that you were serious.
BTW, are you calling us fat? really? someone from the land of the fat, home oft the obese, the country were everbody needs a SUV because no one can get his supersized rear in a mid-sized car and what self-righteous yankee-sob has the nerve to call someone from another country lazy, when everyone on this globe knows that the USA is the frickin’ laziest country that ever existed, which by the way is also the dumbest nation in the western world - you’re level of education is a bad joke and so are you’re cars
Ok, are we done beeing offensive now, this gets exhausting.
November 26th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Dent,
What?! You collect Nazi-cards? I didn’t know there were such things. Anyway, if so, I’ll trade you one two Himmlers for one Goebbels.
Man, you are EASY. I predict that other Germans will stop by here and laugh at you.
BTW, the USA has the highest GDP in the world by far (13 TRILLION), best universities in the world, and we lead the world in science and technology (our patents far outnumber those of other countries). Our cultural products dominate the world markets and people from all over the world come to the US to join us as we live long and prosper. Hey, but who’s keeping score?
And if you don’t know that Germans are fat, then you haven’t really traveled in Europe outside of Germany. But Germans are not only fat, they’re now lazy — but still punctual and organized.
*
November 26th, 2008 at 8:46 pm
My theory on why we Germans (me included) complain so much about the DB although far worse public transport companies exist somewhere in the world: The weather!
When you are waiting on the platform and it is cold and/or windy and/or rainy and Du frierst Dir den Ar*** ab, then every minute the train is too late is A MINUTE TOO MUCH!!!
November 26th, 2008 at 9:02 pm
organized laziness = efficiency!
November 26th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
german punctuality is for the convenience of others…
November 26th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
“I’ll trade you one two Himmlers for one Goebbels”
Forget it, a Goebbels is worth at least one Goering and two Rommels.
“Man, you are EASY. ”
That’s what all the girls say.
“I predict that other Germans will stop by here and laugh at you. ”
The beauty of the internet is, that I don’t have to give a crap.
“BTW, the USA has the highest GDP in the world by far (13 TRILLION), best universities in the world, and we lead the world in science and technology (our patents far outnumber those of other countries). Our cultural products dominate the world markets and people from all over the world come to the US to join us as we live long and prosper. Hey, but who’s keeping score?”
Well, I have serious doubts about the prosper part in the future, but for the rest: good for you - enjoy the ride as long as it lasts.
November 26th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Dent,
Forget it, a Goebbels is worth at least one Goering and two Rommels.
Hey, NOW you’re getting into the spirit! But I’ll NEVER give away my Rommels. Goebbels was a piss-ant compared to Rommel. Rommel may have been a Nazi, but he was also a FOX, a DESERT FOX.
Well, I have serious doubts about the prosper part in the future, but for the rest: good for you - enjoy the ride as long as it lasts.
Yeah, let’s hope gas stays around $1.70 a gallon here. This Hummer I’m driving drinks gas like a thirsty camel. I forgot to mention that my ass is so huge that I can’t even fit it into an SUV. My rear needs a Hummer (hey, now don’t even THINK of taking advantage of what I just typed).
*
November 26th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
“I predict that other Germans will stop by here and laugh at you. ”
Actually, I´m german. And I have a good laugh at you, myfriend.
I think you were pretty aware what he meant with playing the “Nazi-Card”, that was just dull…
“the USA has the highest GDP in the world by far (13 TRILLION)”
In basic economy you learn that it is important what is left of that GDP at the end of the year…
“best universities in the world”
I´ve met someone from Harvrad once and he really did not know what the “cold war” was, jesus christ, I learned that at the age of 5 by watching james bond movies…
“and we lead the world in science and technology (our patents far outnumber those of other countries)”
That´s my favorite by the way. You know who “your” scientists are?
Russians, Germans, Indians, Chinese…
“our cultural products dominate the world markets”
Oh yeah! Like “Heinz Ketchup” (German), Jeans (cloth from italy/france, the guy who invented it:german),…
or do you mean military products? then I have to admit you are right…
“the world come to the US to join us as we live long and prosper”
even the mexicans wont come across the border anymore…
That woul be the answer of somebody who is exactly as superficial as you, dumbnut.
November 26th, 2008 at 11:29 pm
“the USA has the highest GDP in the world by far (13 TRILLION)”
;-)
You mean “dreizehn BILLIONEN”!
“our patents far outnumber those of other countries”
Total or per capita?
November 27th, 2008 at 1:16 am
Sascha,
Actually, I´m german.
Really? Wow, how interesting.
I learned [about the concept “cold war”] at the age of 5 by watching james bond movies…
You learned history from cinema? Hey, here’s a pretty good flick you might remember.
Oh yeah! Like “Heinz Ketchup” (German)
Those FOCKING Americans STOLE your idea for ketchup?! Man, that’s really too much.
HEINZ HITLER!
do you mean military products? then I have to admit you are right…
Thank you. How hard was that? Not at all, right? Hey, but Germans are really good at guarding boxes of canned goods in Afghanistan, so I don’t think that we need to arm such pacifists with anything more than can-openers, right? We’ll sell our JDAMS to people who could really use them.
If German soldiers don’t have anything to do, why not let them run the cash registers at supermarkets in Germany?
Bird or Prey
Total or per capita?
Both. And scoring, on average, about 9.8 on the CMS (Clever Motha Scale).
*
November 27th, 2008 at 11:12 am
Hey Jeff, riffraffing around once again, poking germans in their beer-driven bellybuttons? Just to find a coin to get you a donut? No? Better watch out that your continuing spitfire won’t become a real mess with all those crumbs in your mouth…
Talking about can openers? Well, it was a brit who invented that one. But I think you Amis need them more now, just to get your beloved ones out of their shiny “cans” when they are coming home from their latest raid from some desert or jungle where they did not belong.
Better to open a can of Sauerkraut than one of them.
Talking about sicknesses? Like the ones that your government denies to accept, following all your “missions for freedom”, ghost-like working-class kids, broken by the sights of their comrads blown to pieces?
Yeah, we germans are real sissies, but maybe we are just a bit smarter than the poor guys digging for their luck in the US Army. Probably we just do not enjoy dying for the vanity of some stupid politician or - more likely - for the profit of some oil-pumping, bomb-selling Wall Street a..holes anymore.
Have I reached your level of cynicism, finally?
November 27th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
“But I think you Amis need them more now, just to get your beloved ones out of their shiny “cans” when they are coming home from their latest raid from some desert or jungle where they did not belong.”
Please don’t lump the other amis commenting here in with Jeff. Surprisingly enough, we’re not all alike.
Cynicism as retribution is fine with me as long as you don’t suddenly make me a target.
p.s. Trolls die if they’re not fed for a few days.
November 27th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
@Mike
No offense meant, I know that wasn’t the most funny quote of all times. But as a German, I am not funny by definition. Everybody knows that.:-)
And I do not feed the troll, I just rattle his cage.
I wonder what was Jeffrey’s excuse, he wouldn’t make a good example for the good old sophistiated “anglo” sense of humour. He only sounds grumpy and jaundiced, almost… German?
Gauntlet thrown…
November 27th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
To all,
Okay, fellas. Time to confess. In truth, I think that there are more similarities than differences between American and German culture (when seen against the entire collection of cultures around the world). But, as Michel says, Germans by definition lack a sense of humor, which is why, when they reply to entries at Nothing for Ungood, it’s so entertaining.
Now, there are indeed a few Germans, like Michel, who have acquired a rudimentary sense of humor that allow them to participate in the spirit of this blog, and that’s great to see. Others, like Dent, can only interpret statements at the literal level, and baiting them is a pleasure that I cannot deny myself.
Michel,
My ancestors all came from small villages in Luxembourg, the first one in 1849 from Feulen, which is in fact not too far from the German border. My relatives still living there do not have a very high opinion of Germans, especially after what the Germans did to them back in WWII. There is a memorial in the town today marking the liberation of the village from German control by the American forces.
But I myself have lived in Germany and in general find them an interesting group of people. It took me about six months of living in Germany to understand the basic differences between American and German culture. Once I did that, I began to understand how German culture is organized. What works in one country will not work in another country. But, as I’ve said before, the Achilles’ heel for Germans in their anti-Americanism, which resembles in some respects their anti-Semitism.
The asymmetry between the relations of the two cultures is noteworthy. Americans don’t really think about Germans all that much; Germans think about Americans far too much. If any of you have ever been to Japan (the other country we defeated in WWII), then this asymmetry would be obvious. The Japanese do not possess this virulent strain of anti-Americanism that haunts the Germans. The Japanese, in this area, and just more self-confident, and don’t need to look for scapegoats to explain ills in their own country.
*
November 27th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
When I still went to school in Berlin, we were not allowed to enter the school building when supposed to be sick and at home. It’s some insurance thing.
Anyways, I know you could get into a lot of trouble by going to school instead of staying at home. So when there was an exam coming up and you wanted to take it but were still “sick” - you couldn’t take it. No way. You’re sick! Why are you even here? Go home!
November 27th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
The primary difference between American and German attitudes is easy. It’s like the Nationalmannschaft pre- and post-Klinsi. Before Klinsi the Germans played not to lose, and after they played to win.
Germans live their lives in an attempt to avoid disadvantages, and Americans live their lives in an attempt to obtain advantages.
How else can you explain the German Rentner who *truly* believes that if s/he isn’t *absolutely first* at the doors of the U-Bahn when it stops at the station that s/he *will not* be able to get off the train. Or the child who is screaming for the free Herring at a “loaves and fishes” Fest. They are not trying to obtain any advantage (the Rentner will, with 100% certainty, be able to exit; and the child doesn’t really *want* a fish), they just don’t want to be at any disadvantage in relation to their fellow panicky countrymen.
November 27th, 2008 at 4:10 pm
That has got to be the most insightful anonymous comment ever. I guess my work is done here.
November 27th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
It also explains why Americans will go for the 72oz drink and the mega fries. Not because they’re hungry, just because “it’s a deal”…
November 27th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
@Jeffrey — New York
“I enjoy teaching and it would have to something very serious to keep me out of the classroom. ”
aside from enjoying their job, I just can’t comment on that, it’s the same attitude moste of the teachers I had the pleasure to enjoy have.
this led to them constantly complaining in class how sick they were and being even more unfriendly than usual. really hated it. if you’re sick, you’re sick and should stay home, if on the other hand you are able to work do so and stop whining
November 27th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
It is insightful but not exactly breaking news for a german. The relationship between our countries is much more complicated, I think. We had a lot of issues in the past century and there is a certain level of anti-americanism, but you have to consider that millions of germans were raised in the believe that America is the root of all evil, they called it “Klassenfeind”. George W. Bush wasn’t that helpful, too.
@Jeffrey
“Others, like Dent, can only interpret statements at the literal level, and baiting them is a pleasure that I cannot deny myself.”
You’re welcome.
“The Japanese, in this area, and just more self-confident, and don’t need to look for scapegoats to explain ills in their own country.”
Well the japanes dealt with their history pretty much by ignoring it while Germany is, sometimes in a strange way, still recovering, there are still some open wounds. Germany survived two dictatorships in the last 100 Years and they left a lot of scars behind. We tend to react very sensitive to totalitarian tendencies, we get nervous if a person or institution gets to much power, we like bipartisanship (or whatever it’s called in a five-party-system), we like compromises, we don’t like people shouting in our news, we don’t like militarism and we don’t like wars, for which you can’t really blame us.
America seems to like confrontation in its various ways which can be very disgusting but also very fascinating and that pretty much sums up the way Germans see the United States.
“If German soldiers don’t have anything to do, why not let them run the cash registers at supermarkets in Germany?”
Even if we’re a gunshy nation, we’re doing our part in Afghanistan, East-Africa, Kosovo and many other parts of the world, most american probably never heard of.
“the USA has the highest GDP in the world by far (13 TRILLION)””
The thing is, about 20% of that is in the dumpster once known as financial market.
“I forgot to mention that my ass is so huge that I can’t even fit it into an SUV. My rear needs a Hummer (hey, now don’t even THINK of taking advantage of what I just typed).”
Maybe you should get a Hummer-hybrid, you could get a 25 mileage out of it, which would be responsible for american standards. I had to smile about your comment because the german translation of hummer slipped into my mind, it’s infantile, i know, but anyway.
I guess you’re right, I do the literate-thing a lot, but I don’t really care
November 27th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Troll food!
http://www.forbes.com/2007/02/07/worlds-fattest-countries-forbeslife-cx_ls_0208worldfat_2.html
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=6166
November 27th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
“If German soldiers don’t have anything to do, why not let them run the cash registers at supermarkets in Germany?”
]
Because they wouldn’t be allowed to! Innlandseinsätze are unconstitutional! [Disclaimer: I did get the joke. This dead serious answer was intentional.
“That has got to be the most insightful anonymous comment ever.”
And I thought “Anony” is one specific person!! [Disclaimer: This time I am serious.]
“I had to smile about your comment because the german translation of hummer slipped into my mind, it’s infantile, i know, but anyway.”
How dare you Americans calling an object “Hummer” that is neither red (when cooked), nor eatable, and hasn’t even scissor-like claws!
[Disclaimer: Guess!]
November 27th, 2008 at 9:26 pm
Wie schon im vorherigen Thread geschrieben, werden wir nach Zeit bezahlt. Die Sozialpartner haben allerdings mal ausgehandelt, dass auch Tage, an denen man krank ist, bezahlt werden. Die ersten 6 Wochen vom Arbeitgeber und danach von der Krankenversicherung. Um Missbrauch zu minimieren hat man sich darauf geeinigt, dass die Krankheit von einem Arzt attestiert werden muss. Bei längerer Krankheit muss dies sogar ein ”neutraler” Sachverständiger bestätigen.
Klar, ein Arzt kann selbstverständlich nicht den exakten Tag vorhersehen, an dem man wirklich wieder völlig gesund ist. Aber er kann aus seiner Erfahrung abschätzen, welche Zeit dazu etwa erforderlich sein wird. Sollte sich herausstellen, dass es doch länger dauert, kann er die Bescheinigung verlängern. Andererseits kann er bei früherer Genesung auch einem früheren Arbeitsbeginn zustimmen. Dies ist erforderlich, da ansonsten der Arbeitnehmer vom Arbeitgeber unter Druck gesetzt werden könnte, trotz noch anhaltender Krankheit vorzeitig zurück zu kommen.
Okay, der Arzt kann nicht hellsehen, also gibt es sicherlich auch etliche Erkrankte, die so lange daheim bleiben, wie der Arzt es attestiert hat, auch wenn sie sich längst gesund fühlen. Andererseits gibt es auch immer mehr ernsthaft Kranke, die sich trotz ihrer Krankheit zum Arbeitsplatz quälen, weil sie diesen nicht aufs Spiel setzen wollen. Entweder sie gehen gar nicht erst zum Arzt, oder sie lassen sich zwar vom Arzt behandeln, geben aber das Attest nicht beim Arbeitgeber ab.
Statt die Vorzüge, die in anderen Ländern erkämpft wurden, neidisch zu kritisieren, sollten wir besser anstreben, dass wir alle nicht mehr ausgebeutet werden als dies ohnehin schon praktiziert wird. Angesichts der fortgeschrittenen Globalisierung sollten wir da viel stärker an einem Strang ziehen. Die derzeitige Finanzkrise zeigt doch wohl deutlich genug auf, dass man uns ”kleine Leute” nur als Arbeits- und Stimmvieh betrachtet. Gewinne werden personalisiert (wandern also in die Taschen gewissenloser Finanz-Jongleure) und Verluste werden sozialisiert (müssen also letztlich von der Allgemeinheit getragen werden).
Der Aufruf ”Proletarier aller Länder vereinigt euch!” ist zwar sprachlich antiquiert, inhaltlich jedoch wichtiger als jemals zuvor.
November 28th, 2008 at 12:11 am
“That has got to be the most insightful anonymous comment ever.”
And I thought “Anony” is one specific person!! [Disclaimer: This time I am serious.]
I am. I think.
November 28th, 2008 at 12:23 am
Come on. If your doctor would tell you you can stay at home for, let’s say, a week and you get full payment during that time and this week isn’t subtracted from your free days, you tell me you’d go to work anyway? Sure thing.
November 28th, 2008 at 7:24 am
Whether planned or not: Actually, getting ill is the biggest fear of the Germans!
They are so obsessed about health respectively about healthy living that the wast majority of them spend hours and hours in gyms, have to go biking/swimming/(nordic-)walking at least three days a week, buy tons of Sagrotan (this is some kind of household disinfection spray/liquid), will shave off their pubic hair (not for aesthetical reasons but because the presence of pubic hair is not “hygienical” enough for them), will throw the entire pizza in the trash if some little spot on the pizza is charcoal-burned and get hysterical about eating healthy food…
Some of them even fear that much illness that they can’t leave the house without their daily shot of vitamines and they always carry a bottle of echinacea (some kind of medicine one can drink to prevent a cold) with them. This is absolutely mad and you can’t have a conversation with a German without sooner or later talking about health…!
November 28th, 2008 at 8:49 am
We don’t need to do that stuff in the States, we have drugs for everything. We don’t need sick days, we’ve got pills! They’re not cheap and those who can’t afford them can’t fall back on a base insurance of any kind because THAT is socialism and is the beginning of the end.
/end sarcastic+ironic transmission
November 28th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
I agree with Mike.
Let me add that American drugs are more RAMBO-KICK-ASS than those limp-wristed, homeopathic Yooropean drugs. Our drugs do all their unilateral, commando raids in the middle of the night as we sleep. No prisoners. Those germs get mowed down, and the next morning we wake up refreshed and ready to go.
*
November 28th, 2008 at 7:51 pm
So what do you do about the collateral damage after the drugs My-Lai’d your system
November 28th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
…and ready to go.
OK, let’s play.
When I am turning over once again in my bed, you are on your way to your first underpaid job to get your rent paid.
When I get up to see the doctor to get the yellow “my-little-holiday”-ticket, you are kissing the rear of your second slaveholder boss, to earn enough money to pay your health insurance.
And when I pick up the phone to tell my boss that he can kiss my I play am sick for the rest of the week, you are turning burgers on your third job, because you can carry home some of the uneaten stuff. Unfortunately, you will loose this one soon, because of all the charcoal meat you served during the last days, but that really wasn’t your fault, just the withdrawal from all that “rambo-kick-ass” stuff you’re swallowing the whole time.
Good, eh?
Now tell me, the joke is on… who?
HAIL SOCIALISM!
But seriously: What Germans do not understand about the USA and what actually seems really weird: even Americans who are the losers of the American way of life are still proud to be an American. Even when this nation and its capitalism took all they had, they are still proud of it. Now THIS is what I call really sick. It always seems as if they were brain-washed, because usually one would loose the faith in the system, would question it and would probably be looking for alternatives.
But they… are still worshipping it. It’s incomprehensible. And plain stupid.
But maybe I just get my information only from the wrong sources, and I am totally wrong; everything is peace, pleasure and pancake over there…
Yes, maybe Germans are the most nagging, nit-picking people in the world. But the unconditional devotion and confidence of the Amis to their social, political and economical system could not be healthy. Wait a minute… of course some people benefit from it. But not the majority. The majority just hope that everything will turn to good account for them, and in the meantime they are proud to be the only nation with cheese in a can . Sometimes it seems as if this whole nation was built on hope alone. And we in the old world prefer a little bit more concrete within the things we build. Besides, that’s why we have all these neat old houses you are gazing at when you come visiting us, after all.
But there is at least one thing I must admit: You people are much cooler than we are. You have Britney and Paris, we have Jeanette Biedermann. You have Denzel and Will, we have Roberto Blanco… and so on….
November 28th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
…second slaveholder boss…And when I pick up the phone to tell my boss that he can kiss my I play am sick for the rest of the week
“slaveholder”, “kiss my” and “play” were meant to be crossed out. Completely ruined the sentence. Anybody here who can help me with the syntax?
November 28th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
Dent,
Are you trying to play along?! Good. Okay, we’re focked-up mofos and a little damage to our systems doesn’t hurt us. We pop the pills, our black ops dudes take out the germs, and we live to work another day. It’s all good.
Meanwhile, Germans buy browse the aisles of the natural foods store for the most fashionable home remedies, competing with each other to see who can work the least — it’s the NEW NEW German ARROGANCE.
So a warning to the Germans out there. Don’t even TRY to take our medication; what we take is for warriors, not wimps.
*
November 28th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Jeffrey wrote:
“Don’t even TRY to take our medication; what we take is for warriors, not wimps.”
What doesn’t kill you, makes you stronger, right!?! ;O)
November 28th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Michel: The reason Americans are averse to socialism is that they know instinctively that, as (ironically enough) Marx said, quantitative changes become qualitative changes. You start out with a little bit of a State-sponsored benefit here, another there, and then, soon enough, everyone’s basic needs are taken care of. Not a bad thing. BUT…when the advantages are all secured by the State, people stop competing for advantages and start competing for avoiding disadvantages. Then a qualitative change in people’s nature takes place. It’s not about making things better, it’s about avoiding having anything worse than anyone else. You can’t kill the competitive spirit that easily. Ultimately it gets to the point, I’m sure you can attest, that no one wants to help anyone out anymore because it might mean some sort of Nachteil for you. Or you start to truly believe that if you don’t get to the U-Bahn door FIRST, or to the pool lounge chair FIRST, or to the front of the checkout line FIRST, you won’t get there at all. Wanna talk about sick. IMO, Germans could use some of our medication.
November 29th, 2008 at 6:53 am
@ Jeffrey:
Please note, what the best universities in the world say:
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/April04/cost.illness.jobs.ssl.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/22/health/main613228.shtml
Ignorance is strength! Backwardness is improvement!
November 29th, 2008 at 6:54 am
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/22/health/main613228.shtml
November 29th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Yeah, right. “The competitive spirit”. Your little fetish.
No, I don’t wanna doom competition at all. It is one of the basic principles of biol. evolution and tech. progress, finally. But one fine day somebody came up with the stupid little idea that even those (human beings) who lost this competition should not be left behind. That somebody should take care of those who can’t take care of themselves. Call it humanity, or charity, or altruism, whatever.
I don’t wanna claim that Germans are the nice little type of folks who do all this. Regrettably, we are not. We are no tribe of good Samaritans, lighting our ways with cute glorioles above our heads. And I don’t say that Americans are maneating egomaniacs, everyone starring in his very own TV commercial for selfishness. I learned that e.g. the spirit of small-town neighborly help is much more popular and alive than in Germany. Here, these relationships are often affected by envy and yes: competition, all this “my-car-is-bigger-than-your-car” kind of stuff.
Not the people are wrong, but the system.
But (the American way of) capitalism is meant to carry this competition to the extremes. Here it really depends on if you are the FIRST. It keeps a lot of advantages (e.g. you can change from CEO to dishwasher and back to CEO again - wouldn’t work that way here, once a dishwasher, forever a dishwasher). But it also keeps a lot of opportunities to fail. When you stand up again, you will be adored. But when you don’t have enough power to rise again, you will probably even be despised for it. And nobody gives a …t about you.
There has to be someone who takes care of all the people left behind by the rest of the society, regardless of their ideology, skin color or religion. The one and only lobbyist of the damned (I absolutely don’t talk about god here). For me, that’s all socialism is about: to act as a social being. If you would doom these people in the bigheaded, superior way Americans act sometimes, one may even call it fascism.
“You start out with a little bit of a State-sponsored benefit here, another there, and then, soon enough, everyone’s basic needs are taken care of.”
IMHO, this kind of faith and fear is hammered into your brains at school, by US media, by politicians, until you start to believe it. Most of you never lived in a socialistic country, or a country that pretended to be socialistic. Furthermore, on the contrary, you still get teached that the antichrist is living on a small island south of Florida, a dodderer who will soon poison the people of the US of A with cigar smoke and watered rum.
But just have a look at the latest events. Banks that have to be saved by governments with tax money. Governments and private corporations poking through your underwear, scanning your accounts and spying on your hard drives, all under the cloak of the higher public good of the chimera called safety or just for profit. And all that happens not (only) in socialistic countries, but in the homeland of what we call “Raubtierkapitalismus”. Sometimes you seem to be blinded by your patriotism: You always point at the splinter in the socialistic eye, while you are ignoring the log in yours.
Gives me the willies.
November 29th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Michel: I doubt you lived in the land of “Real existierende Sozialismus” like I did. And, yea, I saw firsthand MANY MANY times what happens when someone falls down there. Instead of the good social beings who learned about socialism for 40 years every day being there to help the person up, there were usually skinheads kicking him further down. The good social beings were usually turning their heads and walking away. Which is what I’m saying: Americans are (rightfully) afraid of becoming such “social beings.”
November 29th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Interesting how the German sense of irony emerges when they’re forced to talk about their nature. And how the American sense of earnestness likewise comes out…
November 29th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
One of the big ironies of history is that our social benefits were introduced OUT OF FEAR of socialists by right wing politician Otto von Bismarck! He hoped to woo their followers away to conservatism by this move.
So, dear Americans, if your fear of socialism becomes too overwhelming, now you know what to do…
November 30th, 2008 at 6:43 am
Anony: What you doubt or not isn’t my problem. I was born in the GDR. And I never saw any skinheads there. They first crept out of the gutter after 1989, before that time no Neo-Nazis wouldn’t have shown their real attitude. GDR was anti-nazi by declaration. If you have lived there, you should know that.
Anyway, I never glorified neither East not West Germans, quite the contrary. Furthermore, I thought we are about talking german/american issues here, I am tired of people explaining to me how (my) life was in the GDR. I am listening to this crap for 20 years now, it is like listening to blind people talking about colour TV.
“Americans are (rightfully) afraid of becoming such “social beings.””
You aimed for bullseye with that line, but all you hit was some other bull-word. Yes, we talk much about stereotypes here, but no one really meant to lump all germans or americans together. There are no “socialistic” or “capitalistic” people. There are just people.
If you think that someone becomes an unsocial person automatically when living under the aegis of socialism, then you probably also believe in the fairytale of the perpetual “good-guy” attitude of the average american.
The truth is: “such social beings” exist everywhere in one way or the other, irrespective of the political system they are living in.
“Socialism” is just an idea or ideology, and it’s like Nobel’s dynamite: You can use for the good or the bad of mankind. It depends on what people make of it. IMHO, americans are being taught to be afraid of it since the Russian revolution. They are afraid that they cannot handle this idea (as if socialism was some kind of Godzilla), and so they dealt with it the only way they ever dealt with things they were afraid of: America aimed and shot its weapons on it. Ridiculous.
But I am not the devil’s advocate. I just wanted to discuss, and maybe learn something new that is worth thinking about more than a second.
Maybe we should cut politics and get back to sicknesses.
On the other hand: Sometimes it is all the same.
November 30th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Michel,
The economic system that both Germans and Americans live in is capitalistic: private property is central to both. Both Germans and Americans pay taxes to the local, state / Laender, and federal government — all kinds of taxes. These taxes are used to pay for a wide range of services and projects, from maintaining streets to arming and training our soldiers. The Germans pay a little more in taxes directly to the federal government, the Americans a little less. But it’s only a matter of degree, not of kind.
Now define for me what you think is “socialism.” If by socialism you mean a system where the state itself owns all property, then neither Germany nor the United States have a socialist economic system. Americans would like to see a smaller federal government (and we’re having a hard time making that happen), while Germans are satisfied with a larger role for the federal government. Some areas in Germany, however, like education, are still controlled by the Laender, with some broad outlines laid down by the federal government.
[A]mericans are being taught to be afraid of [socialism] since the Russian revolution. They are afraid that they cannot handle this idea (as if socialism was some kind of Godzilla), and so they dealt with it the only way they ever dealt with things they were afraid of: America aimed and shot its weapons on it. Ridiculous.
If by socialism you mean communism (state owns all property), then we Americans have indeed seen how destructive it can be to a people. The Soviet Union turned out to be just another despotic oligarchy. We can also look at the “socialist paradise” in North Korean. Wasn’t East Germany was also such a “socialist paradise.” Do you want to return to that? The Godzilla reference is just stupid.
Germans today do not live in “socialist paradise.” They live in a system almost identical to that in which Americans live. We both live in representative democracies where the private property and the rule of law are central to how we function from day to day — for the Germans, thanks to the Americans who helped you set up this particular political/economic system for you after 12 years of living in a dictatorship that cost the lives of millions. We also helped the Japanese write a new constitution that would guide them into the future. The successes of both Germany and Japan since then have much to do with what AMERICANS consider a good economic and political system. No thanks necessary.
*
November 30th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Still, there is a slight difference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_market_economy
And talking about the so called communism: It never really existed.
They named it communism but instead stuck with socialism with another name. If I remember Marx and Co. right, socialism was supposed to be a short phase on the way to true communism. To date, no one ever really achieved such communism.
It seems to exist in Star Trek, but no one really knows how they accomplished that.
Perhaps it takes another WW… or just Vulcans visiting. Who knows…
November 30th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Jeffrey: let’s take it a bit easier on our little buddy Michel. He might have suffered a Kreislaufkollaps as a result of getting all worked up here. We don’t want to be the evil Klassenfeind, Raubtierkapitalisten that would kick him when he’s down, do we? He’s probably out getting help from some of his fellow socialist beings who are always there to help a fallen comrade. And also, he already pointed out that he’s just socialist “by declaration.” Not that it’s possible to “automatically become” socialist in any way…waitaminit! Now I’m confused….
November 30th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
@ Anony: Socialism (as in Jeffrey’s definition no. 1) does not equal or inevitably lead to communism! Otherwise those 40 years of German division would’t make much sense!
(OK, if you happen to be a German with family on the other side of the Iron Curtain it didn’t make much sense anyway, but I think it is clear how I meant this…)
November 30th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
It’s like the Wall Street “bailout”. If you call it “bailout” the people hate it, if you tell them what’s behind it (hard enough if you consider the averege attention span of an averge american citizen) they much more like it. So as long as it’s called “socialized medicine” instead of universal healthcare it will be much more unpopular
November 30th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
I read this blog entry a few months ago:
http://adaabroad.blogspot.com/2005/02/keep-on-rocking-in-free-world.html
If this is what you’re being thought at school then I have no words. Are you really being thought that there was never any denazification in East Germany? Do Americans know what a ‘Persilschein’ is? (apparently not, because there is no English Wikipedia entry for Persilschein ;)http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persilschein ).
Comparing the English and German version of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denazification is also ‘fun’.
November 30th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
taught… how embarrassing
December 1st, 2008 at 4:51 am
I’m still waiting for anyone who wants to have a serious debate. Germans? What say you?
*
December 1st, 2008 at 9:28 am
We had a lot of issues in the past century and there is a certain level of anti-americanism, but you have to consider that millions of germans were raised in the believe that America is the root of all evil, they called it “Klassenfeind”.
Now that’s BS I think. After WWII American Soldiers were seen as saviours by the common people. There was no food - they brought food. That may not be true for all Germans, but if you watch old documentaries, you will see many many people hailing the arrival of the Americans (maybe - on the other hand - they were just too used to hailing…)
I think the relationship between America and Germany is complicated on many levels. One reason may be, that many Americans give us Europeans the impression that they consider us underdeveloped in many respects (esp. economically and - the most annoying - morally). While this is not true for all Americans (at least I hope it’s not…), that’s the impression we get.
Maybe Germans should learn to relax a little, while Americans should stop considering themselves too superior - that would relax things a little…
George W. Bush wasn’t that helpful, too
As comedian Michael Mittermeier said: Americans and Germans have a lot in common - we both like strong leaders that are not democratically elected…
December 1st, 2008 at 11:04 am
“We had a lot of issues in the past century and there is a certain level of anti-americanism, but you have to consider that millions of germans were raised in the believe that America is the root of all evil, they called it “Klassenfeind”.
Now that’s BS I think.”
Ähm - you have to distinguish between West ad East Germany, so this literally half-true. (I can’t figure out from which post you got that quote from, Balu.)
“I think the relationship between America and Germany is complicated on many levels.”
There is a nice word for it: Hassliebe. (Oddly, he Enlish term is he other way around: love-hate) But otherwise you nailed it in the rest of the paragraph. Please someone correct me if I am wrong, but part of the problem seems to be that the moral superiority is an element of the Americans’ founding mythos. (The pious pilgrims leaving sinful Europe behind, the independence against the greedy British monarchy, ect.)
December 1st, 2008 at 11:21 am
Now that’s BS I think. After WWII American Soldiers were seen as saviours by the common people. There was no food - they brought food. That may not be true for all Germans, but if you watch old documentaries, you will see many many people hailing the arrival of the Americans (maybe - on the other hand - they were just too used to hailing…)
Did it ever come to your mind that he might have been talking about the Germans living in the GDR, Klassenfeind being a term from the socialist ideology?
So in fact, there were about 16 million Germans raised or living in a system that indeed saw America as an enemy before the “Wende”.
December 1st, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Did it ever come to your mind that he might have been talking about the Germans living in the GDR,
No, it did not. Considering that, the orginal statement may indeed be valid.
December 1st, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Dear Jeffrey,
Many thanks for all that stuff about taxes, governments and socialism. Never heard of it before.
As I said: I am not the advocate of socialism. There is no universally valid definition of the word. But as a common denominator, socialism is about the idea of creating a form of social justice between different social classes. Really somthing to be afraid of.
As a matter of fact, even if Germany is no “socialistic paradise” (when did I claim that?), two of the most important political parties in Germany are socialistic, at least by their name and programm, even though not necessarily by their deeds. One of them even forms one part of the governing coalition.
“Socialism” has basically nothing to do with all that “state owns everything” and “everybody’s equal” crap. Do you really think anybody (probably except those who really own nothing) in the world would really agree to such ideas? This really works only in Star Trek (thanks to Stefan W.). Besides, the phrase “all men are created equal” is no quote from the communist manifest. Should I assume now that Jefferson was a socialist/communist?
All what I wanted to say is: The typical american aversion against “socialism” is just stupid. Only because you were tought that in socialism you have to give everything you own and earn to the government it hasn’t to be the truth. But it explains why “socialistic” is some kind of swearword in the US.
And do you really think that North Korea is a socialist country? Not at all. If I would declare myself to be the Wizard of Oz, would this declaration really make me the wizard? But for the average american who prefers to keep things simple, it’s obvious: N.Korea=socialistic, N.Korea=bad, equals socialistic=bad. Believing is everything.
Dear Anony,
My bitter buddy, your quotes were meant when I wrote “something new that is worth thinking about more than a second” - NOT!
It’s a pity that you seem to misunderstand and exaggerate almost everything I wrote. Remembers me to consider the low level of education you probably had, just in case you grew up in the US. I will try to keep things in more simple terms, just for people like you. Must be the spirtit of X-Mas that came over me. As Jesus said: “What you did for the least of these …, you did for me.”
Dear all,
Let’s things cool down a bit. This is at least just a nice little blog, not the UN tribunal, by the way. Basically, we started with “planning illnesses”, and suddenly we are discussing the complete german/german-american history of the last century.
December 1st, 2008 at 2:31 pm
All what I wanted to say is: The typical american aversion against “socialism” is just stupid. Only because you were tought that in socialism you have to give everything you own and earn to the government it hasn’t to be the truth. But it explains why “socialistic” is some kind of swearword in the US.
I find that Europeans are so frustratingly baffled by America’s deep disdain for socialism that they try to find theories to explain this behavior and it’s been my experience that most of these theories are unfortunately way off mark.
The main reason why Europeans are not able to understand our deep distrust and disdain for socialism is because they tend to view America through the lens of the European experience. Europeans think our government functions like their own, they genuinely believe that our Congress is the same as their Parliament and that President Bush is the equivalent of their Chancellor or Prime Minister. They think that because Europe and the United States are the main definitions of western societies, then it follows that we have the same values and beliefs. They believe that since they look forward to their 4 or 5 weeks of vacation, then the average American must feel the same, that since they have socialized medicine, then the average American must be longing for the same. And this is precisely why there are so many misunderstandings of Americans and what we believe in. By and large, Europeans “think” that they understand Americans or that they “know” what we should want, and what we should want should parallel what Europeans already have.
What Europeans need to understand is that unlike the various European countries which evolved out of two thousand years of conflict and conquest, the United States is essentially a nation purposefully founded on the following ideologies:
1. Freedom from governmental tyranny (i.e., freedom from British rule)
2. Citizens possessing God given rights that CANNOT be taken away by the state (e.g. freedom of speech)
3. A laissez-faire meritocracy, i.e., the right to accumulate as much wealth as possible with as little interference from the state as possible
Unlike Europe, the United States was NEVER conceptualized as a social welfare state simply because it was never necessary. Opportunities were so plentiful that one’s ability to do well in life was only limited by one’s willingness to work. As a result, a regime for social welfare was not as badly needed in the U.S. as it was in Europe which historically had to endure the abuses of tyrannical and incompetent aristocracies, the setbacks to development caused by dozens of peasant revolutions, the funneling away of finances for grand colonial conquests and the inefficiencies caused by a lack of democratic rule. You simply cannot look at the U.S. and chastise it for its rejection of socialism without considering its history.
Dismissing our staunch rejection of socialism as a mere “fear” only shows that Europeans really have no understanding of what America actually stands for. The fact is, socialism is wholly and completely INCOMPATIBLE with the ideologies that the United States was founded on. A meritocracy can only work with high levels of employment and personal social engagement instead of state sponsored intervention.
To that end, you’ll find that the role of government in the U.S. is to provide the necessary functional infrastructure that enables citizens to independently create prosperity while the role of governments in Europe is to ensure the equal distribution of prosperity. These are two completely separate ideologies that have been shaped and determined by different histories and circumstances. You can’t put down the U.S. for rejecting socialism any more than you can put down Europe for rejecting pure free-market capitalism.
December 1st, 2008 at 6:27 pm
How come that the comments are longer than the article they are commenting?
Is that a good or a bad sign for an author I wonder!?! ;O)
And by the way, happy first advent, paecetime has come and should reach the comment section soon.
December 1st, 2008 at 9:01 pm
@Hepkat
“Europeans think our government functions like their own, they genuinely believe that our Congress is the same as their Parliament and that President Bush is the equivalent of their Chancellor or Prime Minister”
First of all, when you’re talking about eurpe you’re talking about 500 mio people, 42 independent nations, Eu and non-EU, monarchies and republics, former communist and former fascist states (or both), old europe and new europe. Each country with its own population, culture(s), language(s),ethnic structure, traditions, history, religions, worldviews, governments, interests. Europe borders Russia, North Africa and the Middle East….we’rer not that far from central-asia, too. To sum it up: we are much more different, have much more issues and we are in the middle of shit. Have u ever seen palrliamentary debates in Great Britain, Germany and Russia…it’s not the same league, it’s not even the same sport. So I have to disagree….btw I would have loved to see George W. Bush beeing grilled like Tony Blair while trying to explain the mess in Iraq to the members of the british parliament.
“They believe that since they look forward to their 4 or 5 weeks of vacation, then the average American must feel the same, that since they have socialized medicine, then the average American must be longing for the same”
They really should be longig for it, because its a pretty great idea
and would be a f***ing improvement for them. I wouldn’t call universal healthcare or 4 weeks vacation socialism.
“the United States is essentially a nation purposefully founded on the following ideologies:
1. Freedom from governmental tyranny (i.e., freedom from British rule)
2. Citizens possessing God given rights that CANNOT be taken away by the state (e.g. freedom of speech)
The thing is that the american people don’t care for it anymore.
Patriot act, wiretapping, guantanamo, waterboarding, secret cia-prison, sevret cia-kidnappings. In most european countries one, two, maybe three things on the list could’ve happen, all accompanied by public outrage. But all this stuff without any larger outcry and less than serious consequences.
The simple answer is, because as long as Joe and Jane Somebody are able to max out their two dozen credit-cards, can watch Football and cable-tv and buy a new car every five to ten years they don’t have to care. This would be also a very easy answer….because if thats true americans and europeans ta leat aren’t that different at all. The problem: as I told you before, europeans are in the middle of shit, so if the american people f**k up by electing the wrong people, they will f**k up world politics and than…..guess what: we f**k. Europe needs America to take care of things smoothly, but american politics seems to be all buit smooth. We can’t take care of things because, as i mentioned as weel, because we are too divided, too many agendas o the table.
What I’m trying to say is that America has to wake up and pull it’s stuff together or we’re all f**ked. Let’s hope the next guy will do the job.
“3. A laissez-faire meritocracy, i.e., the right to accumulate as much wealth as possible with as little interference from the state as possible”
…for everyone at Wall Street (and K-Street, the Oil Industry, private security,
HMOs,Dick Cheney and the United Stades Congress)
It’s not a right rather than a possibility…..pretty small one nowadays if you’re on the lower end of the food-chain.
“As a result, a regime for social welfare was not as badly needed in the U.S. as it was in Europe which historically had to endure the abuses of tyrannical and incompetent aristocracies, the setbacks to development caused by dozens of peasant revolutions, the funneling away of finances for grand colonial conquests and the inefficiencies caused by a lack of democratic rule. You simply cannot look at the U.S. and chastise it for its rejection of socialism without considering its history.”
That’s true…..partly. The founding fathers weren’t big fans of the power the the people idea, they we’re much more democratic than the european rulers but still a bunch of white New-England liberal elitists and slaveholders. But they had some nice ideas for sure.
The US was built on religion, liberalisms and for the western part: guns, opression and brutal colonization. It’s a glorious and extremely brutal history. From the beginning it was kind of a survival-of-the-fittest-, every-man-on-its-own-society which developed in an amazing and somehow dysfunctional one.
Socialism represents everything the american idea doesn’t stand for, but it seems that in our times the american idea contains some serious flaws, a little injection of socialism could be some bitter medicine.
“A meritocracy can only work with high levels of employment and personal social engagement instead of state sponsored intervention.”
I agree, but what if the free market collapses, far fetched isn’t it. When millions loose their jobs, can’t pay for their houses, bills, healtcare. Who are they calling for…..it’s not the ghostbusters, it’s the goddamn federal government. The people maybe hate the federal governments and especially taxes, but they love secured borders, safe neighboorhoods, prisons, highways, firefighters, someone to take care if cities are flooded or devastaded by tornados, to fight their wars and kill the people who are trying to hurt them. Basically they want the government to max. out the big federal credit-card to keep them well.
“These are two completely separate ideologies that have been shaped and determined by different histories and circumstances.”
Well, the modern german society was shaped by the US a lot.
You can’t put down the U.S. for rejecting socialism any more than you can put down Europe for rejecting pure free-market capitalism.”
After recent events on the financial market you should praise europe for it…I do.
December 1st, 2008 at 10:36 pm
AMEN.
December 1st, 2008 at 11:34 pm
@Dent
I get the impression that you didn’t really read or fully understand my previous post, for a lot of your points emphasize exactly the type of deeply ingrained ignorance and misinformation about the U.S. that one finds so prevalent in European societies nowadays.
First of all, when you’re talking about eurpe you’re talking about 500 mio people, 42 independent nations, Eu and non-EU, monarchies and republics, former communist and former fascist states (or both), old europe and new europe.
My previous references to Europe should be understood as referring to Western Europe.
btw I would have loved to see George W. Bush beeing grilled like Tony Blair while trying to explain the mess in Iraq to the members of the british parliament.
More ignorance. The President of the U.S. can NEVER be grilled by Congress (unless in an impeachment hearing) or made to justify his/her actions before them. Like I mentioned in my previous post, Europeans think they understand us when in reality they don’t. Our Congress is not the same as your parliaments and our President is not the same as your Chancellors or Prime Ministers.
In the U.S., the federal government is divided into three separate and equal entities: the Legislature, the Executive and the Supreme Court. Unlike in Western European systems of government, these entities are sovereign which explains why the U.S. President cannot be “grilled” before Congress or why he cannot be voted out of office by a “no confidence” vote. As a matter of fact, he can’t even enter Congress without their approval as this would infringe upon their sovereignty.
They really should be longig for it, because its a pretty great idea
and would be a f***ing improvement for them. I wouldn’t call universal healthcare or 4 weeks vacation socialism.
No we do not. It might be a great idea for Europe but it would cause our system to crash were it implemented in the United States. It is your own arrogance to believe that 4/5 weeks vacation would represent an “improvement” in our lives. We clearly prefer to work. After all, all those American business concepts and IT terms that you guys consume wholesale require a lot of hard work in order to be invented, which would be impossible if, like you guys, we were constantly on vacation or sick leave.
Regarding universal healthcare, like I’ve said before in my previous post, America was founded on the ideology of freedom from governmental oppression and having as little governmental intervention as possible. Universal healthcare, by its very nature, would necessitate much more governmental involvement in our lives than we are prepared to endure, and after having lived in Europe for 11 years, I know exactly what I’m talking about. Although there are obvious advantage to universal health care, the disadvantages include compulsory police registration (social welfare necessitates the distribution of wealth and social services which in turn necessitates the state knowing everything about the population), long waiting periods for treatment, less choice for treatment options or doctors, lots of bureaucracy and paperwork.
We prefer to regulate our own health care privately without governmental interference. To that end, Americans mostly rely on private health insurance which allows us the freedom to determine the amount of coverage we want, the freedom to choose our own hospitals, doctors, types of treatment, etc. If you don’t like your health insurance, then you can change jobs or company.
Patriot act, wiretapping, guantanamo, waterboarding, secret cia-prison, sevret cia-kidnappings. In most european countries one, two, maybe three things on the list could’ve happen, all accompanied by public outrage. But all this stuff without any larger outcry and less than serious consequences.
More ignorance and crap on your part. Where on earth do you get your ideas on America?
Americans don’t need to worry about the silly laws or wiretapping or Guantanamo Bay because of the unique structure of our federal government. Unlike the European model, our government is divided into three equal but separate parts, as I’ve already mentioned. However what makes our system very special is the very high level of checks and balances built into it, which ensures that no branch of the government becomes more powerful or tyrannical than the other. This explains why in over 220 years of independent existence, we’ve never had a revolution or totalitarian regime. Besides Britain, I don’t believe any other industrial country could make that claim.
Basically, because each branch of government constantly checks and controls the other, no single branch is allowed to become more powerful than it should. The Europeans love to rant about Guantanamo Bay and the Patriot Act, etc., ad nausea, but what they fail to realize and what they never show on European television is that the other two branches of government have been slowly undoing Bush’s questionable actions over he past few years. The Supreme Court has already dealt the Bush Administration several blows regarding Guantanamo Bay and Congress has refused to pass laws to support his efforts. In effect, Bush has been severely checked, exactly as the Founding Fathers of our constitution intended, which is why he’s referred to as a Lame Duck.
Just two weeks ago the courts again freed 5 prisoners from Guantanamo Bay, and a few months before that, another 10 or so were ordered freed. This has been a continuing development since the Supreme Court granted all Guantanamo Bay prisoners the right to challenge their detention in American courts, thereby rebuffing Bush by reminding him that he’s not a king. But of course you never hear about this in the European press. People therefore get the impression that Bush does whatever he wants, whenever he wants.
Americans don’t need to worry about Bush. They already know that Congress and the Supreme Court will take proper care of him. No try to find any European system of government that features such a high level of safeguards and protections.
Europe needs America to take care of things smoothly
That may be the case but America has been waiting decades for Europe to step up to the plate and become a viable, credible partner for the U.S. We’re tired of having to clean up Europe’s mess - almost every major conflict in the world today is as a direct consequence of Europe’s incompetence and inability to clean up after itself. 200 years ago you all proudly ruled the world while conquering and dividing the native populations. All of your colonial adventures have now made a grand mess of things, but now that you are all rich, “neutral” and social, you’d much rather go on holiday for 4 weeks than put in the hard work it takes to fix a broken world. And why? Because America will take care of it. Well, you can’t have it both ways. Europe should either make a meaningful contribution to world affairs (and that means raising a qualified standing army to carry out defensive and offensive missions) or if you prefer to sit back, sip cocktails and work on your tan on the beaches of Mallorca, then don’t complain when the U.S. takes matters into its own hands. We have a saying in English, you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
…but what if the free market collapses, far fetched isn’t it.
That is simply a fact of life. No system is perfect. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. Yes, we have fallen, but if American history has taught us anything is that we will rise again, better and wiser than before. You need no further proof than the recent election. Here in Austria, when things got bad, who did they elect? Jörg Haider and Christian Strache. When things got bad in the U.S., who did they give the world? Barack Obama and a complete change of Congress.
Out with the old, in with the new!
December 1st, 2008 at 11:40 pm
Oh, I forgot…
AMEN!!!
December 2nd, 2008 at 1:30 am
The President of the U.S. can NEVER be grilled by Congress (unless in an impeachment hearing) or made to justify his/her actions before them.
Oh, not receiving standing ovations for a state-of-the-union speech would actually be grilling enough. Congress chooses to be that dishonest.
After all, all those American business concepts and IT terms that you guys consume wholesale require a lot of hard work in order to be invented, which would be impossible if, like you guys, we were constantly on vacation or sick leave.
You may choose to live in the past as much as you want, but the most important components of the computer I’m using right now have been designed in Germany, and manufactured in Germany and China.
Regarding universal healthcare, like I’ve said before in my previous post, America was founded on the ideology of freedom from governmental oppression and having as little governmental intervention as possible.
I can see that you’re argument essentially is that the right to potentially earn as much as possible is held more important in the US than some basic human rights. As humans, Europeans tend to be a little more sensitive there, you see?
Americans don’t need to worry about the silly laws or wiretapping or Guantanamo Bay because of the unique structure of our federal government. Unlike the European model, our government is divided into three equal but separate parts, as I’ve already mentioned. However what makes our system very special is the very high level of checks and balances built into it, which ensures that no branch of the government becomes more powerful or tyrannical than the other.
You need to get in touch with reality real quick. Aggressive investigation against regular American citizens and torture of people of arbitrary non-american citizenship is happening right now. Your checks and balances are not working.
Here in Austria, when things got bad, who did they elect? Jörg Haider and Christian Strache.
Apart from the fact that neither Haider nor Strache ever were part of the federal government, it’s a sad fact that Austrians tend to vote right-wing when they’re pissed (don’t exaggerate: things aren’t really bad here, the economy is in pretty good shape, actually; Austrians just didn’t like the previous government). When you look at the policies of Democrats and the unspeakable Republicans closely, you will quickly discover that both parties are more right-wing than the ÖVP in economic terms and socially right in the middle of ÖVP and FPÖ/BZÖ.
December 2nd, 2008 at 5:18 am
Hepkat,
Thanks! You just schooled Dent big time. Dent is one large ball of resentment, hatred, and ignorance. It’s a volatile cocktail indeed.
I think it was Dent who said that Germans would be leading the world in comedy these days if only they hadn’t killed all of their Jews and five and a half million other Jews from neighboring countries — yes, Gruendlichkeit above all, Germans.
*
December 2nd, 2008 at 8:39 am
The USA is the greatest nation that is, was or ever will be. US Americans are the smartest, most ingenious, inventive, creative, skilful, imaginative, intelligent, intellectual, successful people on the planet. Just look how the rest of the world hangs on every word spoken by or about the political or business leadership in the US. Forget the things you think or believe might have been invented by someone from your country. Forget anything you were taught or might teach regarding the “Greatness” of your nation, its people, heritage, history and future. We understand your envy and admiration. But, now it is time to go out and make something of yourselves. Stop riding our coattails and try to find your own way.
America.
Land of the free and the home of the brave.
Leave us alone. You will never attain our greatness. And you will never break our will.
Tom
December 2nd, 2008 at 9:57 am
Jeffrey,
Sad to see that you lost your sense of humour somewhere. Maybe you should stop shouting “U-S-A! U-S-A!” all the time while typing.
When I read Hepkat’s lines, it seems that further discussions about these issues is useless. You Amis believe in your system. Okay, be it.
But don’t forget to share your faith with all the losers of your great society. Ask all the homeless, sick, unemployed and (working) poor, if the American way of life works good for them and if they wouldn’t like a sip of the socialist medicine. Maybe your own people can teach you one thing or two. And: One sip doesn’t mean you have to buy the whole bottle.
Nobody demands that you learn from the mistakes Old Europe (now known as “the socialistic paradise of america-haters living in the past”) made in all these centuries.
Your forefathers came up with all these good ideas (they brought from Europe, but I don’t throw a rock). Since that time, Amis are looking at the rest of mankind in a superior way, because all other nations represent the past, you see yourself as the only livable future.
Strangely, first thing they did was to erase the native americans and to keep on holding slaves. Furthermore, since the founding, the US were almost permanently involved in wars, first on the continent, later everywere in the world. Ask the indians, slaves, all these subordinate reds, chicanos, gooks, japse and towelheads, what they think about the “all created equal”-medal you carry on your breast.
Police registration for public health insurance? More BS. Watch “Sicko”. Oh, I forgot: You can’t, because Michael Moore is also a communist manipulator, and you can’t trust him. Fortunately, millions of Amis did not share this perspective and went to the cinemas. The movie was nominated for an Oscar and got a lot of positive critique from US media. All this for a bunch of lies?
Yeah. Your system of mutual control between your governmental entities works great. And the Irak still hides WoMD.
By the way: Can you spell “lobbyism” for me, please?
The right to accumulate as much wealth as possible? I got the same right too here in Germany. And it’s of the same value as the right to win as much money in Las Vegas as possible. This right is worthless.
Your nation is built on blind hope. People immigrated to the US only because they deeply believed that they can be the ones for which the fairytale of “dishwasher to millionaire” becomes true. Amis are sucking this faith in with their mother’s milk, and all their lifes they are aiming for it. And they never stop and ask themselves how many millionaires and how many dishwashers you have. It’s admirable how they fall and stand up again, but it’s also stupid. They clutch on the smallest hopes like drownings and never think about real feasibilities. Your policies, media and economy feed this hope, because if the ordinary Ami would start thinking about the true sense of the american way, it would be likely that your society would fall apart.
Don’t misunderstand me: Hope and ambition are absolutely good and necessary thing, but the USA have absurdly overstretched these principles.
See it as it is: The west was won, gold rush is over. The times when the world was your playground and every man could live on his own law of the jungle are over. Stop only admiring the few who succeeded, start thinking about the masses who went down the gutter at the same time. Oh, you can’t, because you were taught to focus on the chances and advantages of the individal? Dear me!
Opportunities? My .ss! Open your eyes and klick your heels, this is not the happy kingdom of Oz you’re living in.
Probably start asking yourself why people around the world are hating or rejecting the US policy of freedom and economy. Even Western Europe, which was freed and build up again after WW2 with a lot of help from the US, rejects a lot of aspects of your way of life.
Why, when it’s so great?
Because all these people are ignorant? Or probably you? Ever considered this possibility?
December 2nd, 2008 at 12:26 pm
“We clearly prefer to work.”
Know what? We too.
But we do not share the blind faith that, if we only work hard and long enough, we will live long and prosper. The truth is: A lot of people live in poverty, if they work their .ss off or not. Their sons and daughters will 99% never go to the university, no matter how clever they are. The capitalist system only works well for one kind of people: the ones you are working for, the one who skin the cream. If they are not satisfied with the profits they make, to hell with tradition, loyality and patriotism, the close their doors and move to China or somewhere else.
But Americans do not get the idea to vote against this system, because your rulers worked out really good ways to prevent it.
First, how can you vote against exploitation when you dream to become a profiteer by yourself? How can you critizise the superior upper-class behaviour of the rich, when you dream of being one of them at the same time?
Second, even when you get unemployed, you still will profit a bit when your employer moves the production line to East Asia, because you are one of the small shareholders of the company.
Third, you will never unite and equal with the poor, because by the American motto they must be sluggardly and it must be their own fault to live in poverty, with all these great opportunities surrounding them, isn’t it?
Besides, equality smells like socialism, like “union” etc.
Fourthly, all that “God given rights” and “God’s own country” stuff still impresses the religious John Q. Public. As long as your preachers, judges, political representatives and other rulers all pretend to act in God’s name, who would argue against them?
30 million americans need food ration cards. Goldman Sachs predicted an unemployment rate of 9 % by the end of 2009. Approx 3.5 Mio people are homeless, 1.35 Mio ot them are kids. 41,2 Mio US-citizens have no health insurance. The USA have the highest national debt in the world.
All of these numbers are growing. All that happens in (one of) the richest nations in the world.
Would you please explain the great advantages and achievements of the American way once again, little grasshopper?
December 2nd, 2008 at 12:27 pm
“skim the cream”, of course…
December 2nd, 2008 at 2:35 pm
“Fourthly, all that “God given rights” and “God’s own country” stuff still impresses the religious John Q. Public.”
Yet another little curiosity. Why has a country that is supposed to be secularized “In God we trust” written on it’s coins, while in another country, which has church taxes, the churches lose more and more members??
December 2nd, 2008 at 3:21 pm
This is one of the really futile debates I have witnessed oh so often: each side is complaining why the other side isn’t just as they are. Germans and Americans are different, they hold different values and beliefs because they have a different history. What works for Germany wouldn’t be accepted, even abhorred, in the US, and vice versa. Why is it so difficult to just accept that (and ignore the little trolls on both sides that try to explain to you that just about everything in your country is shit)?
December 2nd, 2008 at 4:03 pm
You sometimes also get out-of-office responses by email stating “I am sick at home until Thursday without access to my email or office phone. I will get back to you as soon as I return to office …”
I must admit to have done this in the past.
Cheers, Patrik
December 2nd, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Well, I accept the american way of life, but why shouldn’t I discuss it’s flaws. As I tried to point out, some american issues affect the whole world, so we want it to be handled well. I could discuss the problems of the german society for hours, but that would be kind of boring.
December 2nd, 2008 at 6:37 pm
“It is your own arrogance to believe that 4/5 weeks vacation would represent an “improvement” in our lives. We clearly prefer to work. After all, all those American business concepts and IT terms that you guys consume wholesale require a lot of hard work in order to be invented, which would be impossible if, like you guys, we were constantly on vacation or sick leave.”
@ Hepkat:
Exports Germany -> $1.354 trillion f.o.b. (2007 est.)
Imports Germany -> $1.075 trillion f.o.b. (2007 est.)
Exports USA -> $1.148 trillion f.o.b. (2007 est.)
Imports USA -> $1.968 trillion f.o.b. (2007 est.)
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook
Your (I’m talking about you as a person) arrogance exceeds the indisputable american achievements.
December 2nd, 2008 at 6:50 pm
One big reason the US is afraid of socialism: we don’t want a buch of Michels running around here telling us how great the system (and he himself) is… You think I’m joking? Listen to 10 minutes of right-wing radio!
December 2nd, 2008 at 6:53 pm
@Dent
Why is it a flaw that Americans obviously don’t value social security as much as we do (because they simply have different values and beliefs)? Shouldn’t that be THEIR business if they prefer to have millions of people without health insurance? It’s not that they couldn’t introduce it when they felt they would want and need it, it’s a democracy after all. What significance does this have for you?
Vice versa, the same applies to Americans deriding everything it that differs from their ultra-individualstic preferences, and calling it “socialistic. Most societies, including the German one, are much more collectivistic than the American society. None of their business *shrug*.
December 3rd, 2008 at 8:23 pm
@jeffrey:
“I think it was Dent who said that Germans would be leading the world in comedy these days if only they hadn’t killed all of their Jews and five and a half million other Jews from neighboring countries — yes, Gruendlichkeit above all, Germans.”
Yes, and i told you that it’s a quote from “The West Wing” - great show btw.
“Thanks! You just schooled Dent big time. Dent is one large ball of resentment, hatred, and ignorance. It’s a volatile cocktail indeed.”
You should read my posts before commenting on it. I really admire the ideals on which your country was founded, I really do. I think the american constitution is a marvelous piece of work and its principles can’t be praised hig enough. I accept that every countries history has its dark chapters, some darker than others, and that countries have to deal with it their own way.
My father was born in Berlin in 1946, 10 Month after the end of the war. He barely survived and without teh allied support, I probably wouldn’t write this post. I was born 30 years later, in berlin during the cold war…not the happiest place on earth, but still apretty damn cool one, lot of GI’s around here. So I know what America did for us and I know why they did it. I think I know what America is capable of, in terms of good and bad and thats why I - and more than 80% of US-citizens - hate to see america heading in the wrong direction.
Hope I’ve made myself clear, Jeffrey, or does it need more irony for you to get it.
@Alex
Why is it a flaw that Americans obviously don’t value social security as much as we do (because they simply have different values and beliefs)? Shouldn’t that be THEIR business if they prefer to have millions of people without health insurance?
Who prefers it? are you kidding me?!? Do you really think people prefer to NOT have healthcare? If you actually do, you should seek some proffessional help (hope you’ve got some insurance).
It’s not that they couldn’t introduce it when they felt they would want and need it, it’s a democracy after all. What significance does this have for you?
Who’s “they”? Congress? they already have pretty nice healthcare. Because it’s a democracy people elected s.o. who hopefully will make universal healthcare happen.
December 3rd, 2008 at 11:45 pm
As for the unalienable rights mentioned in the American Declaration of Independence and other documents where human right play a role, you could also argue that they include, among many others, health (as far as possible for a specific indiviual of course) and protection from inhumane degrees of poverty –> necessity of social benefits!
In the end it all boils down to fact that the philosophy on both sides of the Atlantic is derived from the ideas of humanism, just that the interpretations/conclusions are at some points different.
December 4th, 2008 at 1:42 am
Hm, as an Austrian, I have to say I have never “scheduled” my illnesses. However, yes, in general doctors tell you to be off work x amount of days, and you are expected to do so. There are plenty of sick days available so that people don’t have to drag themselves to the office while totally sick and contagious, and that’s a good thing. Luckily I run my own business from home now; no more desperate people coughing their lungs out in the cube next to me because they only have FIVE sick days a year.
December 4th, 2008 at 10:18 am
@Dent:
Who prefers it? are you kidding me?!? Do you really think people prefer to NOT have healthcare? If you actually do, you should seek some proffessional help (hope you’ve got some insurance).
You obviously really cannot imagine that there are people in the world with a different mindset than you. Yes, obviously the majority of Americans (until now) preferred their system, otherwise they would have changed it already.
Who’s “they”? Congress? they already have pretty nice healthcare. Because it’s a democracy people elected s.o. who hopefully will make universal healthcare happen.
“They” is the American people. And you just repeat what I say: if the majority of the Americans wants to introduce public healthcare, it will eventually be introduced. It’s a democracy, for Christ’s sake. And much more direct than our democracy, BTW.
December 4th, 2008 at 10:43 am
This discussion is so freakin funny. Guess I had my fair share of an impression of the american way of live and the european or at least the german way of it.
Nevertheless - carry on lads and laddies. Especially the Americans! I love to read your stuff about the lazy ass germans!!! You are absolutely and totally right.
Germans are lazy wimps, which complain all the time about their fat ass and other countries which allow themself to have an other opionion about the things should work out.
`
Keep it up!
Oh, by the way. I’m German. I’m just to lazy to get into a senseless discussion…. .
Best regards
Argon
December 4th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
I don’t know how American readers think about this, er, debate, but as a German I can’t help cringing …
December 4th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
““They” is the American people. And you just repeat what I say: if the majority of the Americans wants to introduce public healthcare, it will eventually be introduced. It’s a democracy, for Christ’s sake. And much more direct than our democracy, BTW.”
Well, they did, even it wasn’t about healthcare in the first place, this election was a referendum on how much the radical GOP free-market agenda sucks.
“Germans are lazy wimps, which complain all the time about their fat ass and other countries which allow themself to have an other opionion about the things should work out.”
I don’t agree on the lazy part, but germans are for a bunch of self-pittying whiners and a lot of them are pretty wimpy, but at the end of the day, they get the job done. They built a lot of nice stuff to sell around the globe, their economy isn’t completely in the tank, infrastructure is nice, they are more popular than ever in the world (not that hard, but still) and the social systems are working mor or less allright…for now.
December 4th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
German Soldiers Too Fat to Fight.
Oh the shame!
*
December 4th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Dent,
Are you really from Berlin? Where did you live? In the mid-80s I lived in a small apartment in Alt Moabit. It had a coal heater that I had to feed with bricks of coal through the winter. The coal store closed sharply at six. I remember once freezing all night because I had gotten to the store late. Also, in winter, I used to marvel that the red lights on top of the church spires would come on at around two in the afternoon — which made for LONG evenings at the Kneipen.
*
December 4th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
I don’t remember much of the eighties (I was too young, no substance abuse involved), pretty crazy times back then. It’s a completely different city now, literally. I grew up and still live in Schöneberg, about 500 feet away from the place were JFK held his speech in 1963.
December 4th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
@Dent: So they did. And what exactly is your problem now?
December 5th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
Dent,
In 2006 I spent a couple weeks in Berlin and rode my rental bike all over the city. Shoeneberg, to my eye, hasn’t changed that much. East Berlin and central Berlin, of course, have changed a lot. I lived there before the wall came down, but since then I’ve tried to visit every couple years. Anyway, Prenzlauerberg, as you know, is now the MECCA for lazy Germans. Stroll around on a summer afternoon and count all the lazies lounging at the outside tables. Hey, if your rent is paid for by the German government and they also give you enough cash for a doener and a beer each day, along with a Tasse Kaffee und Brotchen mit Kaese every morning, why work? Life is good for Germans with no ambition.
*
December 5th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Well some parts of the city didn’t change much compared to others, but they still changed a lot.
The PBerg People arent’ unemployed, cause no one without a serious job could afford the rent over there - because the government doesnt pay that kind of rent. So most of these people are freelancers, business owners, students, artists or simply wealthy. They’re not really representative.
“Hey, if your rent is paid for by the German government and they also give you enough cash for a doener and a beer each day, along with a Tasse Kaffee und Brotchen mit Kaese every morning, why work? Life is good for Germans with no ambition.”
Well, on wellfare they actually will pay you 4.28€ a day to cover your costs for food, drinks and cigarettes.
Doener: 2,50 €
Beer (cheap): 0,40 €
Cup of coffee: 0,10 €
Brötchen: 0,25€
Käse (100g): 0,75€
= € 4.00, still got 28 cents left for a smoke.
Btw, to get the money is quite a procedure, the government will check the financial records of you and every one who lives with you, including bank accounts, insurances etc. You have pretty much to show them everything you own, and if there’s some unnecessary stuff you can sell, you have to sell it first, it’s kind of an embarrassing process. You have to agree that you take every lousy, sensless, clear-up-the-unemployment-statistic-job they offer you. Not to mention that the law this whole wellfare-system is based on is so flawed, unfair and badly written that more than half of the hundredthousands of lawsuits filed against it, are succesfull. It’s the 7th circle of beaurocratic hell.
So its a rather imperfect system, which is good in one way, if you are able to work you will try to get a job very fast, so you do not have to deal with the institution they call, in a sense of irony only a government can come up with, “Jobcenter”.
December 5th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
” It’s the 7th circle of beaurocratic hell.
So its a rather imperfect system, which is good in one way, if you are able to work you will try to get a job very fast, so you do not have to deal with the institution they call, in a sense of irony only a government can come up with, “Jobcenter”.”
Hartz IV is crappy - on purpose??? 0o Hmmm, it WOULD make sense…
December 5th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
LoL
People who have time to make comments with more or less 5000 characters really shouldn’t consider themselves as hard-working
December 8th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Well as a matter of fact…and coincidence I’m home this week because I’m sick. A nerve in my back is going Banzai on me everytime I walk, stand or sit, so I have to lie down most of the time which is boring like hell. I’m also on medication right now, but not the good medication which will make you high, only the crappy kind. I would rather go to work, just to do stuff instead of doing nothing, also my contract has to be renewed before christmas and I’m on vacation next week, so it’s not the best timing. Long story short: I’m sick, I’m home, I’m bored, life sucks.
December 9th, 2008 at 9:56 am
Very true, the same applies to Austria, except for freelancers who work from home: we might be sick, but we still go to work…those evil bosses of ours…
December 9th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Dent,
Long story short: I’m sick, I’m home, I’m bored, life sucks.
I’m happy.
Heh heh.
*
January 28th, 2009 at 9:12 am
[…] Phänomen hat auch John auf Nothing For Ungood absolut treffend […]
March 26th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
But it’s that we want to do so… it’s like a compulsion inherent to most Germans.